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-   -   Boris Safonov real claims and german losses (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33816)

GMichalski 29th April 2013 11:39

Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
hi,
i see this info in some webs but there are many variations in the number of claims, which is the official number of victories?
apart from that someone could confirm if these German casualties match their claims?

25+14? - 30+3? - 25+7? - 20+6? - 18+4?................

24.06.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 1 Ju.88A-5 WkNr 8173 R. Schellem – KIA 6./KG 30
27.06.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G 1/2Hs.126 WkNr 3395 Herbert Kem – KIA (G) 1.(H)/AGr 32

*14.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Bomber
*14.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Bomber
16.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 2 Hs.126 **
17.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 3 Ju.87R-1 WkNr 5461 Rolf Bansbach (¿?) IV.(St)/LG 1
*17.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? He.111H WkNr 3749 Heinz Feldmann (?) I./KG 26
18.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 4 Ju.88
25.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 5 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 3387 K. Gunther + 3 (MIA) II./KG 30
*27.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Ju.88A-4
*27.07.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? Ju.88A-4

05.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 6 Bf.109E-7 WkNr 3227 unk (damaged) 1./JG 77
06.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 7 Ju.88A-5 WkNr 2424 F. Meinhof - KIA I./KG 30
-6.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? 1/2Bf.109 I./J.G.77?? (G) **
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 8 Ju.88A-5 WkNr 3468 Heinz Burkert – KIA I./KG 30
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G 1/2Ju.88A-5 WkNr 3351 H. Schilling (G) (¿?) I./KG 30
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G Group Ju.88A-5
09.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G Group Ju.88A-5
*23.08.1941 73 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? He.111H-5 WkNr 3691 G. Wilhelm + 3 (MIA) Stab./KG 26
23.08.1941 74 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 9 1/2Ju.88 (G) **
*26.08.1941 75 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? 1/2Ju.88A-6 WkNr 3467 Desconocida (G) (¿?) I./KG 30
27.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 10 Hs.126 WkNr 4262 Heinrich Steller – KIA 1.(H)/AGr 32
27.08.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" G 1/2Bf.109 II./J.G.77?? (G) **

*02.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" ? 1/2Bf.109 (G) **
09.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 13" 11 Ju.87R-2 WkNr 5962 Hans Werner - KIA 10.(St)/LG 1
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" 12 Bf.110C-4 WkNr 2125 H-H. Hoffmann – KIA 1.(ZG)/JG 77
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" 13 Ju.87R-4 WkNr 5425 Gerhard Helwig - KIA IV.(St)/LG 1
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" 14 Hs.126 **
15.09.1941 72 SAP – SF I-16 Tip 24 "White 11" G Group Bf.109

17.12.1941 78 IAP – SF Hurricane IIB S/N BN233 15 Bf.109E-7 WkNr 4081 Alfred Jacobi - WIA 14./JG 77
31.12.1941 78 IAP – SF Hurricane IIB S/N BN233 16 He.111H-5 WkNr 4357 E. Roithmayer - KIA 1./KG 26

*17.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 ? Bf.109F-4 WkNr 10177 W. Pfränger (POW) II./JG 5
17.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 17 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 142062 W. Teichmann – KIA I./KG 30
30.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 18 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 1760 Siegfried Scharff – KIA 3./KG 30
30.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 19 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 430244 unk 3./KG 30
30.05.1942 2 GSAP – SF P-40E BuNo 41-13531 20 Ju.88A-4 WkNr 142068 Fritz Müller – KIA (¿?) II./KG 30

info from:
http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/2...v_ARTICULO.htm
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/a...v/safonov.html
http://cieldegloire.com/015_safonov_b_f.php

many thanks
regards

Juha 30th April 2013 00:35

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Hello GMichalski
On 30.5.42, Müller's Ju 88A was lost in a fatal take-off accident, but a Ju 88D-5 from 1.(F)/124 made an emergency landing because of combat damage and was written off . No personal losses. So 2 Ju 88s were lost because of enemy action but IIRC also both of the two other Soviet pilots flying with Safanov on that day claimed a Ju 88.

Juha

GMichalski 30th April 2013 10:39

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
hi,
thanks for the info
regards

Mirek Wawrzynski 1st May 2013 19:08

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
20+6 victories had claimed in 225 combat sorties and in 35 combats v. LW.
In fact he could destroyed between min. 3 or max. 8 LW's planes. Quite many as for Russian ace on the Far North.

See more in my article (it is Safonov's biography printed in 2010 in Poland, 100 % Polish), quite long story pp 18-26:

http://www.magnum-x.pl/czasopismasec/lw/1313


Regards,
mirekw

PS.
I do not make any scan from my edited work.
On p. 24 is a long table with these full 20+6 Safonov's victories and German losses of course.

GMichalski 2nd May 2013 11:24

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Hi,
in this web i see at least 8 verified of 17:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/safonob/safonob.htm

i think i see in a Christer Bergstrom book the same

3 of 20 seems very little credibility!

in my opinion the 20+6 are the claims of the logbook...the strange thing is the variety of victories attributed....30+3,25+14.....

regards

Mirek Wawrzynski 2nd May 2013 12:44

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Amounts of victories depends of period and person who did this. After his death was produced by propaganda hero. Propaganda needed many victories and it had got.

Second I have written, that between 3 and 8 destroyed planes (> 60 % damage in LW standards) - 3 is a minimal destroyed but also could be 8.
Other planes could be damaged.

Next 14 victories had claimed on I 16 typ 24 (4x7,62 SzKAS - not very strong weapon in 1941), 2 on HC and 4 on P-40E.
Depends on how you describe the victory and claim (3 or 8 destroyed planes)?

In my opinion Christer Bergström's book RED STAR-BLACK CROSS; has too many errors many times written by me after I edition. He has produced a book which contain too many myths and untrue data. The information about Safonov's victories he had obtained from Yuryj Rybin resarches and this information are credible. I based on Rybin's works too.

Small correction to my data
Safonov had done 224 (not 225) combat sorties and fought in 34 air duels/combats (not in 35),
sorry with this mistake.


GMichalski 3rd May 2013 00:05

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi,

thanks for the extra info.

I put all the information I found in this excel, take a look

thanks for all,
regards

Mirek Wawrzynski 3rd May 2013 17:56

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
This info in Excel most probably coming from Yurij Rybin researches with small errors done in translation into English.

Regards,
mw

John Beaman 4th May 2013 17:00

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Great work Guys!

This is why TOCH exists............

GMichalski 4th May 2013 23:06

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
hi,
it´s clear that this will continue to be a duet..´

It seems that this list is the most reliable i see in internet...

can you explain these "small errors done in translation into English." please

kind regards

and also regards for you Beaman.

Juha 5th May 2013 10:23

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Hello GMichalski, some extra info. The W.Nr of the Ju 88 D-5 of 1.(F)/124 which belly landed onto Kirkeness a/f was 430244. According to Valtonen’s Luftwaffen Pohjoinen Sivusta (1997) the plane was a written off and the FF was Uffz.Schmitz. And he gives as the reason for its battle damage as the firing by P-40s of 2. GIAP.


Juha

Mirek Wawrzynski 5th May 2013 21:47

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Quote:

hi,
it´s clear that this will continue to be a duet..´

It seems that this list is the most reliable i see in internet...

can you explain these "small errors done in translation into English." please

kind regards
It takes too much time (with this English). I had done this work in 2010 during writing my article, where is given a table (all victories 20+6), a little bit bigger then this one. Sorry but I can not, and you should see my article.
Regards
mw

GMichalski 5th May 2013 22:19

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
hi,
thanks for all your help,
i will try to get the article,
regards

Mirek Wawrzynski 5th May 2013 22:25

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
OK, I have already done this job, a few hours of comparnisions, one by one. No more, thanks, :-)
Regards
mw

PS.
I think, that there are in the net scanned this magazine.

timothy 10th May 2013 13:08

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
2 Attachment(s)
Speaking of Christer...............a recent meeting.

And last meeting with Safonov - second left!

= Tim

Maxim1 10th May 2013 16:36

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
GMichalski,

Safonov made 18+4 claims during the war, of which 1+2 were counted as "probable" (yes, in The North Fleet Aviation did exist such claim category, although it contradicted the common VVS rules).

You may find the full list here:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%...B2%D0%B8%D1%87

That list was compiled using only an operational documents and therefore must be considered as the most accurate we have to date. It was recently published in excellent book "The Soviet aces. The victories of Stalin's Falcons" by Mikhail Bykov.

Mirek Wawrzynski 10th May 2013 17:53

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Quote:

And last meeting with Safonov - second left!
Not true,

Safonov is fifth from the left or first from the right.
This is photo with pilots of 134 Squadron, among RAF's pilots are seen F/Lt Berg, F/Lt Ross, place is Vayenga-1 airport about 10.1941.

BTW
Vikipedia sometime is not good source of information.
"The Soviet aces. The victories of Stalin's Falcons" by Mikhail Bykov - I do not hear that he has already prined the III edition of his very good book, which is planed to edit on 2013 (?). The second was from 2007 (?), I suppose.
Good book but some errors you may find too. Nobody is perfect, me too.

Anyway Y. Rybin is better if concerning Russian aces on the Far North, then M. Bykov, which is also good but not on such deep level and such good as he is.

Regards,
mw

Brian 10th May 2013 18:17

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Hi Mirek

Re the picture - Tim meant that he was second from left, not Safonov!

Cheers
Brian

Mirek Wawrzynski 10th May 2013 19:27

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Oh, sorry, I did not recognize. Tim I wish you much health and 100 years old, :-)
And all the best.

Regards,
mw

timothy 11th May 2013 11:17

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Oh dear - careless talk!!

Thanks, Brian. And Mirek!

The other pilot is Sgt Fry.

= Tim

Mirek Wawrzynski 11th May 2013 13:41

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
In 2011, I published a long article on the 151 Wing in Russia:

Brytyjczycy nad Murmańskiem - 151 RAF Wing w Rosji/ Brits over Murmansk - 151 Wing in Russia.

Article was published in the Militaria XX wieku No. 4 (43) 2011 pp. 4-15 there are 21 b&w photos and color profiles of two Hurricanes plus a very nice cover.

http://www.sklep.kagero.pl/43-milita...4-43-2011.html

http://kagero.eu/na-ladzie/115-milit...f-wing-wnrosji

Photos of Tim is published in it (p. 10), and how, have to be, just a slightly different angle. Safonov also is on it.

Regards,
mw

timothy 11th May 2013 14:21

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
How do I see photos, Mirek?

Or get back number??

= Tim

Oh, silly me - I HAVE that issue. And yes - a better photograph than my first one.

timothy 11th May 2013 14:47

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
1 Attachment(s)
And, of course, I flew GV-33 (the cover photo) off the Carrier.

http://www.2gvsap.org/video/151_0805.wmv

= Tim

GMichalski 11th May 2013 23:57

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
hi,
many thanks to add more interesting info...
now I'm looking at the number of russian claims and enemy casualties...

take a look:
http://www.net-film.ru/en/film-7763/
regards

Mirek Wawrzynski 14th May 2013 13:59

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Quote:

many thanks to add more interesting info...
now I'm looking at the number of russian claims and enemy casualties...
If you do not read Russian you may have a small problem!

Second, overclaiming ratio on Soviet side (among top pilots/aces) on the Far North was average about 3-4 to 1. It means one in fact destroyed LW's plane to 3-4 claimed/credited victories on Russian side.

So it is interesting subject.

All the best
mw

GMichalski 15th May 2013 11:28

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
hi,
yes, you're right....

in this area some pilots of jg5 overclaimed a lot
sometimes more than 3 or 4 - 1 of Safonov
(Ehrler, Weissenberger, Müller, Dorr, Schuck...)
on the other hand i think that Safonov damaged
many planes that did not fall to the ground
regards

Mirek Wawrzynski 15th May 2013 16:24

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
Always is importann how you just difine a victory.
One man thougts about it as a total destroyed plane (at least >60 % of damage according LW's standards). Others are not so strictly (like me for example).

Next I have said average ratio 3-4 for 1 real loss. In some dules was almost 1 to 1 in others 6 or 7 to 0. All sides had exagerated their amount of victories, which is normal and standard in WW II.

Safonov had some victores, which were in fact "only" damaged planes of course. All German combat planes were 100 % metal one. I-16, MiG-3 or ŁaGG-3, or Hurricanes were not, as Ił-2, this is imprtant too.

mw

GMichalski 16th May 2013 10:52

Re: Boris Safonov real claims and german losses
 
totally agree
for me if it meets certain conditions is a credible pilot:

enemy had aircraft in the area, there was a combat, some were damaged and sometimes some fell to the ground...

regards


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