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-   -   Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27548)

Brian 15th November 2011 13:23

Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Hi guys

Does anyone know the identity of Flt Sgt Payne who flew with 501 Squadron in France 1940, claiming 5 victories. He has been variously mentioned in publications as Jimmy and 'Jammy', and also by the initials 'A', 'A.D.' and 'A.E.'

Chris Shores in Aces High states that he was not the A.D. Payne who served with 610 and 74 Squadrons during the Battle of Britain.

From the photograph of him that has appeared in several publications, he looks to be an older man so was very probably a pre-war senior NCO type. He survived France and may well have gone into Training Command.

Any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

Bruce Lander 15th November 2011 13:46

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Hi Brian,

you are correct, the A.D.Payne of 501 was clearly an older man as his photo in Listemann's 501 history shows while the photo of the other A.D.Payne of 74 and 610 shown in Ken Wynn's "Men of the Battle of Britain" is years younger and anyhow bears no resemblance.
Strange that both should have Alec as their first name too!

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Brian 15th November 2011 15:44

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Hi Bruce

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware that 'our' man was Alec Payne!

Cheers
Brian

paulmcmillan 16th November 2011 10:45

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
I know everyone says that they are not the same.. But is it possible the photo's have been mis identified??


Re Sgt. A.D. Payne 745798 - Firstly I cannot find this Service Number in Air 78 for any Payne

No hits on 745798 on London Gazette

based on this service number he would probably be a pre war RAF VR Pilot

740000 to 759999 Issued Jan 1937 RAFVR Pilots

I have seen him called Alec Dawson Payne NOTE: Not Alexander but Alec..

FreeBMD has: Births Jun 1920

Payne Alec D Mother Maidenname: Lawson Croydon 2a 55 - Would make him 20 in 1940 - So a young man, not an old man

Bruce Lander 16th November 2011 21:09

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Hi,

From Ken Wynn's "Men of the Battle of Britain" :-

Alec Dawson Payne 745798 pilot Sgt. 610 Sq.

Born Croyden. RAFVR . Began flying training 19 E&RFTS Gatwick 9/7/39, solo 18/7/39.
Mobilised 6/9/39 training at 1 ITW Cambridge, RAF Yatesbury andposted to RAF Montrose 9/6/40. To 7 OTU Sept 40 , to 610 Sq.23/9/40 thence to 74 Sq 3/12/40.


In light of the above this Payne could not have been with 501 Sq in France in May and June 1940, The photo of Payne with 501 is with a group of pilots in France in May and appears in several Books and is clearly older than 20. The photo of Payne in Wynn's book looks like a 20 year old and is a different person

The obvious error is giving both pilots the same service number!

Cheers

Bruce Lander

paulmcmillan 16th November 2011 23:20

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Bruce mystery remains btw W/O Alec Dawson Payne died December 2010

Brian 16th November 2011 23:56

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Hi Bruce & Paul

Yes, the mystery remains!

At least Bruce has proved that Alec Payne of 610/74 Squadrons is not 'our' man.

So just who was Jammy Payne?

PS: I have just learned that Alec Payne (of 610/74 Squadrons) crashed on take-off in May 1941 and was seriously injured. He did not return to operational flying but was granted, in 1942, A2B category which meant that he could resume non-operational flying limited to under 20,000 feet.

Cheers
Brian

paulmcmillan 17th November 2011 11:33

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Sgt Alec Dawson Payne 745798 Hit a lorry on take off day on at 2232 hrs on 23rd May 1941 in Spitfire IIa P8265 at Gravesend while with 74 Sqn and was seriously injured.

I next pick him up at 111 Sqn at Bone where as a Warrant Officer, he landed on wrong runway, starboard undercarriage collapsed on 12th December 1942 in Spitfire Vb EP773 on a Test Flight. Aircraft Cat B

Finally I track him down to an incident to Spitfire EP651 of 303 Sqn, when as a Warrant Officer he had an undercarriage failure, category AC on 6th July 1944.

Finally he had a claim of a Me109 destroyed on 2nd February 1941 with 74 Sqn

Stig Jarlevik 20th November 2011 00:48

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Guys

I am still not happy with the "solution" about two individuals.

We have one A.D. Payne (no service number), 501 Sq in France
Aces High (Flight Sergeant), score
11.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
12.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
14.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
15.5.40 Do 17 (Shores, check; Foreman, no)
5.6.40 Bf 110 (Shores/Foreman, check)
Vanish into thin air, Shores says not the same man as in BoB

Men of the Battle of Britain (First printing, have not the issue Bruce got)
We have Alec Dawson Payne(service number 745798), Flight Sergeant.
Claims Payne was with 501 Sq in France, etc, and says posted 610 Sq 23.9.40. Claims
2.2.41 Bf 109 (Shores, no; Foreman, check)
Vanish into thin air

a) If we imagine that the photo of the "old" Payne is misidentified, we have (from the second hand sources I use) no proof we are talking about two persons! That is the photos in Listemann's and Wynn's books are of no value.
b) The new details in Wynn's book (second updated issue?) listed by Bruce does not automatically free our Payne from any service with 501 Sq. All we read is about his moblisation in 1939 which to me makes it more likely he was a fully trained reserve pilot and as such should be issued to an operational squadron or at least an OTU for some time and I find the details supplied by Wynn rather confusing! A trainee who goes solo after 9 days in July 1939 is sent to 1 ITW when war breaks out and is spending over one year in training until posted to an operational squadron while his country is screaming for pilots? More likely he spent time with 1 ITW for a while before being posted...
c) All other posts after that only relates to post BoB service of Payne and has no relevance to identify if we have one or two individuals.

So the question, to me, still remains if we are dealing with one or two individuals here. If anyone can enlighten me to what happened to the four or five victory Payne with 501 Sq and thereby ensure he cannot be the Payne of 610/74 Sq, I would be much obliged. I would also be interested to know why the "second" Payne spent 14 months in training from July 1939 to September 1940 before being posted to an operational Squadron.

Cheers
Stig

paulmcmillan 20th November 2011 15:46

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 
Stig

I actually agree with you, I believe that it is possible that 501 Sqn 'Payne' mis-identified in photos


Paul


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