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-   -   Friendly fire WWII (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2670)

mhuxt 5th November 2005 17:08
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Last Mosquito in the above list (April 24 1945) was MM588 according to Air Britain.

Same source says DZ600 was attacked by HK109, which was on either 85 Squadron or 307 Squadron - I don't have squadron service dates.

Fairlop 5th November 2005 17:29
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:
July 2nd, 1941
RAF Wellington R1516. 311 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF night-fighter over Wiltshire. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.


Wellington MkIC R1516, KX-U, 311 (Czechoslovak) Sqn,
Sgt Oldrich Helma KIA
Sgt Antonin Plocek KIA
P/O Richard Hapala KIA
Sgt Adolf Dolejs KIA
Sgt Jaroslav Petrucha KIA
Sgt Jaroslav Lancik KIA.
T/o East Wretham at 10.02 pm to Cherbourg. S/d by W/C C. H. Appleton DSO, DFC of No.604 Sqn and crashed at 01.46 am at Lower Park Farm, 3 km SE Mere, Wiltshire.

Regards,
Michal

Six Nifty .50s 5th November 2005 18:31
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Wow! Thanks indeed Six Nifty. You'll have to let me have your real identity sometime so that I am able to fully acknowledge your asssiatnce in the forthcoming book. I do have the majority of those incidents you have so generously listed, but there are a few new to me. I do really appreciate your time and effort.

Cheers
Brian
Just the tip of the iceberg, my friend. Some cases can be found online, but mainly I used unit histories and aircraft histories as sources, with a few from Chorley's bomber command losses. Obviously it's easier to harvest a lot of material quickly by consulting general studies such as Norman Franks' Fighter Command Losses, Paul Kemp's book on naval friendly fire, Charles Schrader's book on U.S. friendly fire, Gauker & Blood's statistical summary on U.S. Navy friendly fire, Air Britain serials, or any of several well researched volumes on the Battle of Britain, etc. But I didn't quote anything from those sources because I assumed that you've read them.

I have a pile of USAAF fighter unit histories (stacked about two feet high) but I haven't had the time to go through the majority. When I'm finished, I'll send you an e-mail regarding relevant cases.

How will you format this book? Are you interested mainly in aircraft related incidents, or is this a general study?

Brian 5th November 2005 20:29
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi mhuxt - thanks for the details.

Michal - I had note of the incident but not full identities - thanks.

Six Nifty - great stuff. I have not consulted Schrader's book nor Gauker & Blood summaries (not aware of these). Please elaborate to enable me to purchase same. The mind boggles at what you may find in the US fighter histories! I await with anticipation!

Cheers
Brian

I thought I would post my final (?) list of ETO queries, in the hope that someone out there may have a few answers:

28/10/44: Mustang AM153 shot down by Spitfire

31/10/44: B-17 shot down by British AA - crew list?

23/12/44: Lt Coppoline 366FS shot down P-47

24/12/44: Two Typhoons shot down by P-47s

25/12/44: Spitfire SM303 shot down by P-47

29/12/44: Spitfire PL217 shot down by US fighter

30/12/44: Lt Stovell 56FG shot down by P-47

1/1/45: Typhoon EK497 shot down by P-51 352FG

1/1/45: Beaufighter 415NFS shot down by B-17

Thanks in advance

Brian

The final few for ETO

14/1/45: Two Typhoons (174 and 247 Sqns) shot down by P-47s

17/1/45: Two RAF Mustangs shot down by Spitfires

14/2/45: Mustang KH542 (64 Sqn) shot down by frindly fire

22/2/45: Tempest EJ544 shot down by P-51
P-51 (Lt Peter Vassuer) shot down by 4thFG

6-7/3/45: Mosquito MM237 105 Sqn shot down by Allied NF

24-25/4/45: Mosquito MM588 409RCAF Sqn damaged by another Mosquito.

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s 6th November 2005 21:25
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Hi mhuxt - thanks for the details.

Michal - I had note of the incident but not full identities - thanks.

Six Nifty - great stuff. I have not consulted Schrader's book nor Gauker & Blood summaries (not aware of these).
Charles Schrader's book (one of the Leavenworth Papers) has been long out of print, but the U.S. Army has put the entire publication online, free of charge:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...er/shrader.asp


Eleanor Gauker & Christopher Blood's report is available from NTIS. The title is Amicicide at Sea: Friendly Fire Incidents During World War II Naval Operations. - Final rept. Dec 92-Dec 93. Naval Health Research Center, San Diego, CA.

If you cannot find this at a public library, then order a copy from:

http://www.ntis.gov/search/product.a...starDB=GRAHIST


In addition, the following booklet might be of interest and you should be able to find it online or at a library:

Who Goes There : Friend or Foe. Washington, DC : Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the U.S. : [Supt. of Docs., U.S. G.P.O., distributor, 1993]. ISBN: 0160418143

Six Nifty .50s 6th November 2005 21:51
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
30/12/44: Lt Stovell 56FG shot down by P-47
December 31st, 1944
"...2nd Lt. William Stovall is officially credited with shooting down two Fw 190s on this mission, and while 62nd FS records credit him accordingly, the 56th Fighter Group records do not mention it at all. Regardless, Stovall was killed as he slid his P-47 into the line of fire of another while in pursuit of yet another Fw 190..."

See p.147, David R. McLaren. Beware the Thunderbolt: the 56th Fighter Group in World War II. Schiffer Books, 1994.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
24-25/4/45: Mosquito MM588 409RCAF Sqn damaged by another Mosquito.
On p.48 of Martin Bowman's Mosquito Fighter/Fighter Bomber Units of World War 2 there is a photograph of the downed aircraft (it crash-landed wheels up) with Hardy and Fitchett posing in front of it.

Juha 7th November 2005 21:38
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Brian
You probably know already the attack on RN minesweepers off Etretat by 15 Typhoons from 263 and 266 sqns on 27.8.44. 2 minesweepers sunk, one was badly dam and 3 more lightly dam, 78 KIA and 149 WIA. More details can be found from example from Thomas' and Shores' The Typhoon & Tempest Story AAP 1988

It seems that on April 2 1943 Bf 109s from II/JG 77 shot down a Fw 190 of 11./SKG 10 near El Guettar in Tunis. The pilot Uffz. Peter von Zareba was killed. More details for ex. time, Wnr etc can be found from Andrew Arthy's and Morten Jessen's Focke-Wulff Fw 190 in North Afrika, Classic 2004. Andrew is a member of this board and at least earlier participated our discussions. He might have even more details. If You don't succeed contact him, I can easily post the details there are in the book.

Juha

Brian 8th November 2005 09:13
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Hi Six Nifty - when I clicked on to the Schrader website I realised that I had seen this previously, it's just that I hadn't realised that it had been extracted from his book! But thanks all the same. Sorry, I overlooked your earlier question - my book will deal with only air-orientated incidents - air-to-air, air-to-ground, ground-to-air, and related incidents.

Hi Juha - Yes, I have consulted both books you mention and therefore have extracted details of these incidents. Many thanks.

Cheers
Brian

PS:
Can anyone tell me the story behind a 7thPRG F-5B (42-67338) flown by Lt David K. Rowe being shot down by a Russian P-39 on 26 June 1944? Did he survive? Also, on 15 June 1944, an F-5A (42-12682) flown by Lt Col John R. Hoover crash-landed in Russia. Was he interned? Finally, on 6 January 1945, a Sgt Ken Wilson (groundcrew?) was killed in a take-off accident in P-51D of 368thFS. Was he on an unauthorised flight?

I'm sure one of you guys out there can supply teh answers. Thanks

Cheers
Brian

Six Nifty .50s 9th November 2005 02:32
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Can anyone tell me the story behind a 7thPRG F-5B (42-67338) flown by Lt David K. Rowe being shot down by a Russian P-39 on 26 June 1944? Did he survive? Also, on 15 June 1944, an F-5A (42-12682) flown by Lt Col John R. Hoover crash-landed in Russia. Was he interned? Finally, on 6 January 1945, a Sgt Ken Wilson (groundcrew?) was killed in a take-off accident in P-51D of 368thFS. Was he on an unauthorised flight?
Patricia Fussell Keen's Eyes of the Eighth says that Lt. Rowe bailed out and survived, although he was injured in a cockpit fire and treated for burns by doctors in Kiev. As he floated to earth, Rowe noticed that part of his parachute had burned and he wondered how the Airacobras reached 28,000 feet; the non-turbosupercharged Allisons were not exactly optimized for such heights. Maj. Hoover was intercepted by Yak fighters but his F-5 was not hit by gunfire. He landed safely at a Russian air base, refueled, and flew to Poltava where he received new orders for Italy.

On January 6th, 1945, P-51D 44-14509 was destined for an escort mission to Germany when it crashed on takeoff at East Wretham, killing Lt. Robert V. Beaupre of the 368th FS. Jack H. Smith's Mustangs & Unicorns shows a photograph of the wreckage, but he did not say that any ground crew were injured or killed at the crash site. The narrative does not mention other takeoff accidents on this date.

edwest 9th November 2005 03:56
Re: Friendly fire WWII
 
Here is my two cents:


http://members.aol.com/amerwar/ff/ff2.htm



Ed


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