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Jim Oxley 5th February 2008 22:12

Memphis Belle
 
If Memphis Belle was the first Eighth Air Force B-17 to complete 25 missions, was Morgan's crew also the first to complete 25 missions? And were they all flown in the Belle? Were there any individuals who had completed 25 missions prior to Morgan's crew?

Given that it took almost 10 months for someone to achieve that milestone no wonder such a fuss was made.

Anyone know the name and date of the second crew to achieve this milestone? And what was the name of the second B-17?

shooshoobaby 6th February 2008 00:10

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Jim -
B -17 # 41 - 24577 VK D " Hells Angels "
303d BG , 358th Sq.
Was 1st B - 17 to Fly 25 Missions
Flown by 3 Different Crews
She returned to the U.S. with The Ground Crew - 2/44.
Sent on a Bond Tour and A/C Factory Tour.
RFC Searcy Field 8/7/45 Scrapped.
Mike

drgondog 6th February 2008 00:22

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Oxley (Post 59303)
If Memphis Belle was the first Eighth Air Force B-17 to complete 25 missions, was Morgan's crew also the first to complete 25 missions? And were they all flown in the Belle? Were there any individuals who had completed 25 missions prior to Morgan's crew?

Given that it took almost 10 months for someone to achieve that milestone no wonder such a fuss was made.

Anyone know the name and date of the second crew to achieve this milestone? And what was the name of the second B-17?

Mike is right, it (first B-17) was Hell's Angels, with Knockout Dropper in the race. I think the Hell's Angels might have been the first to reach 50 Missions also - which is why it took longer to return home?

The May 17, 1943 mission would have made the Bell's last mission 9 months to the day from August 19, 1942 for 8th's first official mission of B-17s to Rouen.

So the date of the second ship was Memphis Belle

Jim Oxley 6th February 2008 09:07

Re: Memphis Belle
 
So the Belle was in fact the second B-17 to complete 25 missions. But the Belle's crew the first to complete 25 missions?

Why would Hells Angels have had three crews? Was that due to deaths on missions? I thought the policy of 8th AF was to allocate a specific crew to a specific bomber.

So given that the Belle was the second B-17 to complete 25 missions (although it's crew the first), which was the next crew/B-17 combo to reach that milestone?

drgondog 6th February 2008 18:18

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Oxley (Post 59318)
So the Belle was in fact the second B-17 to complete 25 missions. But the Belle's crew the first to complete 25 missions

Why would Hells Angels have had three crews? Was that due to deaths on missions? I thought the policy of 8th AF was to allocate a specific crew to a specific bomber.

So given that the Belle was the second B-17 to complete 25 missions (although it's crew the first), which was the next crew/B-17 combo to reach that milestone?

I think Knockout Dropper but I am away from my library.

As for more than two crews for Hell's Angels? I'm not sure (reason just stated) but suspect for example that two crews assigned to it flew perhaps 20-22 missions each plus two or three in another ship - or the primary crew of Hell's Angels went down in another ship. I suspect the latter case was why the Belle Crew finished first!

The a/c assignment policy was generally in accordance with rank and seniority (ditto fighter). What that meant was that the Sr pilot with the same a/c assigned to him and his crew usually flew that ship (and had the privelege to 'name it'.) when the a/c was operational.

Two situations would alter this. First, the a/c was off ops for an engine change, battle damage repair, etc... in this case the Hell's Angels' or Belle's' crew would take another ship. Second, the Belle crew wasn'r on the board for that mission so another crew flew her instead.

When you look at orders of battle for a fighter squadron, particularly in early days when there were far fewer actaul fighters in the inventory relative to pilots, the wingman was often flying a 'borrowed' ship and the senior pilot was on the gound, not scheduled to fly that day.

In most cases, except for mechanical problems, the element and flight leaders would be in their own ships.

Regards,

Alex Smart 6th February 2008 18:27

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Hello,


Many years ago "Wingspan" did an article by Graham M. Simons on this subject at the same time or there abouts when the book "The Memphis Belle home at last" by Menno Duerksen came out.


From the details in the article and from other sources I came up with the details given below of the Crew who flew her home to the US.

Details to follow.
.

Alex

Jim Oxley 6th February 2008 21:20

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Looking forward to it Alex.

Alex Smart 6th February 2008 22:50

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Hi,

Two issues of "Wingspan" were August 1989 and September 1989.

As I have not re read them as of yet I give here the two tables as they apear in the second part (September 1989).

Table 1.
War Department Records
No. Date Target Target Location
1. 7/11/42 Submarine Pens Brest, France
2. 9/11/42 Submarine Pens St. Nazaire, France
3. 17/11/42 Submarine Pens St. Nazaire, France
4. 6/12/42 Locomotive Works Lille, France
5. 20/12/42 Airfield Romilly-sur-Seine, France
6. 3/1/43 Submarine Pens St. Nazaire, France
7. 13/1/43 Locomotive Works Lille, France
8. 23/1/43 Submarine Pens Lorient, France
9. 4/2/43 Submarine Pens Emden, Germany
10. 14/2/43 Railway Centre Hamm, Germany
11. 16/2/43 Submarine Pens St. Nazaire, France
12. 26/2/43 Naval Base Wilhelmshaven, Germany
13. 27/2/43 Submarine Pens Brest, France
14. 6/3/43 Submarine Pens Lorient, France
15. 12/3/43 Railway Yards Rouen, France
16. 13/3/43 Airfield Abbeville, France
17. 22/3/43 Naval Base Wilhelmshaven, Germany
18. 28/3/43 Railway Centre Rouen, France
19. 5/4/43 Aircraft Engine Works, Antwerp, Belgium
20. 16/4/43 Submarine Pens Bremen, Germany
21. 17/4/43 Aircraft Factory Bremen, Germany
22. 1/5/43 Submarine Pens St.Nazaire, France
23. 4/5/43 Aircraft Engine Works Antwerp, Belgium
24. 15/5/43 Naval Yards Wilhelmshaven, Germany
25. 17/5/43 Submarine Pens Lorient, France

These are the "Official" 25 Missions it seems.

But the following is the "Actual missions .

Table 2.
No.Date Target Location Aircraft
1 07/11/1942 Submarine Pens Brest, France Memphis Belle
Pilot Co-Pilot Navigator Bombardier Top Turret RadioOperator Waist Waist Ball Turret Tail
R. Morgan J. Verinis C. Leighton V. Evans L.Dillon R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinl

2 09/11/1942 Submarine Pens St.Nazaire, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Verinis C. Leighton V. Evans L.Dillon R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch H. McNally J. Quinlan

3 17/11/1942 Submarine Pens St.Nazaire, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Verinis C. Leighton V. Evans L.Dillon R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

4 06/12/1942 Locomotive Works Lille, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Verinis C. Leighton V. Evans E. Adkins R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

5 20/12/1942 Airfield Romilly-sur-Seine Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Verinis C. Leighton V. Evans L.Dillon R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

6 30/12/1942 Submarine Pens Lorient, France Memphis Belle
J. Verinis J. Jackson C. Leighton V. Evans E. Adkins R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

7 03/01/1943 Submarine Pens St.Nazaire, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan C. Putnam C. Leighton V. Evans E. Adkins R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

8 13/01/1943 Locomotive Works Lille, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan Col S. Wray C. Leighton V. Evans E. Adkins R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

9 23/01/1943 Submarine Pens Lorient, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan Lt Col Lawrence C. Leighton V. Evans E. Adkins R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. Scott J. Quinlan

10 04/02/1943 Submarine Pens Emden, Germany Jersey Bounce
R. Morgan Col S. Wray C. Leighton V. Evans E. Adkins R. Hanson C. Winchell H. Loch C. ScottJ. Quinlan

11 14/02/1943 Railway Centre Hamm, Germany Memphis Belle
R. Morgan H. Aycock C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

12 16/02/1943 Submarine Pens St.Nazaire, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan H. Aycock C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

13 26/02/1943 Naval Base Wilhelmshaven Jersey Bounce
R. Morgan H. Aycock C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

14 27/02/1943 Submarine Pens Brest, France Jersey Bounce
R. Morgan J. Jackson J. Ehrenburg A. Cornwall H. Robbins R. Current N. Kirkpatrick C. Pope R. Cole C. Nastal

15 06/03/1943 Submarine Pens Lorient, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan H. Aycock C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

16 12/03/1943 Railway Yards Rouen, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan C. Freschauf C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

17 13/03/1943 Airfield Abbeville, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan C. Freschauf C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

18 22/03/1943 Naval Base Wilhelmshaven Memphis Belle
R. Morgan C. Freschauf C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

19 28/03/1943 Railway Centre Rouen, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Smith C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell S. Spangolo C. Scott J. Quinlan

20 31/03/1943 Shipyards Rotterdam, Holland Memphis Belle
H. Aycock J. Smith C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

21 05/04/1943 Aircraft Engine Works Antwerp, Belgium Bad Penny
R. Morgan J. Miller C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

22 16/04/1943 Submarine Pens Lorient, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Miller C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

23 17/04/1943 Aircraft Factory Bremen, Germany Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Miller C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

24 01/05/1943 Submarine Pens St.Nazaire, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan C. Debaun J. Ehrenburg V. Evans L. Murray J. Moore C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott W. Dager

25 04/05/1943 Aircraft Engine Works Antwerp, Belgium Great Speckled Bird
R. Morgan V. Parker C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

26 13/05/1943 Aircraft Repair Works Meaulte, France Memphis Belle
C. Anderson D. Gladhart W. Stovall E. Bruton H. Robbins R. Current N. Kirkpatrick J. Carse R. Cole C. Nastal

27 14/05/1943 Shipyards Keil, Germany Memphis Belle
J. Miller V. Parker J. Ehrenburg E. Bruton W. Spofford O. Stuart E. Miller R. Cupp R. McDermott N. Lane

28 15/05/1943 Naval Yards Heligoland Memphis Belle
R. Morgan J. Miller C. Leighton V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott J. Quinlan

29 17/05/1943 Submarine Pens Lorient, France Memphis Belle
R. Morgan H. Aycock R. Kurtz V. Evans H. Loch R. Hanson C. Winchell E. Miller C. Scott R. Cole

30 19/05/1943 Shipyards Kiel, Germany Memphis Belle
L. Anderson D. Gladhart W. Stovall E. Adkins A. Cornwall R. Current J. Carse N. Kirkpatrick R. Cole E. Miller

Ooops sorry for the way this came up on screen I will try to adjust it
But you can see that the none of the crews actually made 25 missions in the Memphis Belle .Although ALL the crew who flew her back to the States had 25 missions under their belt.

Alex

shooshoobaby 7th February 2008 01:02

Re: Memphis Belle
 
Jim -
The Hells Angels Crew went on a couple R and Rs and
other Crews flew her a Few times.
She completed 48 Missions , 40 without an Abort.
The Brass sent Her Ground Crew back to U.S. For
the Tours to Give ALL Ground Crews Recognition /
Morale Boost.
She was a Training B - 17 at Roswell , NM.
Mike

Stein Meum 7th February 2008 11:04

Re: Memphis Belle
 
The "Knockout Dropper" was the first 8.A.F. B-17 to reach 50 missions, on a raid to Norway. It was also the first to reach 75 missions.
Stein


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