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-   -   A bit of a puzzle? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=54976)

Chris Goss 15th September 2019 19:44

A bit of a puzzle?
 
I would love to know the story about this. BofF, I./KG 76 but no idea of where or when. It would appear to have been a ground collision but I have failed to date it. Any suggestions?

Eduardo 15th September 2019 23:26

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Hi,Chris
The propelers of both aircrafts appears to be intact. Both planes were stands on it’s landing gears and covers with plants to hide them so I would guess that they were distroyed by it’s own crew.
Eduardo.

edwest2 16th September 2019 00:25

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
The aircraft on the right appears to be resting on its belly.

Snautzer 16th September 2019 13:41

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
tank is i think a Renault R35. Not beute because cross is missing

RudiS 16th September 2019 14:00

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
I'm not sure this is a ground collision at all. Could be an assembly area on a forward airfield (Absprungplatz) for belly or crash landed aircraft. The tank could be used to drag them over there. On normal home bases they would have repaired these aircraft but on forward bases they would only have the necessary personnel to arm and fuel the a/c and do small minor repairs.

rof120 16th September 2019 14:23

A scrapyard?
 
Rudi could be right.
I feel it could possibly be a scrapyard (perhaps at its beginning), a German or a French one.
Damage to AC is often much worse than we can see at first sight. These Do 17s could be 60-80 % damaged, who knows.

schwarze-man 16th September 2019 15:30

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
It is an interesting picture. I guess there are quite a few possible reasons why but, I also suspect that a semi prepared forward strip for tactical medium bombers would expect to have quite a few damaged aircraft and it could easily be a few of them would be on their belly. :(
Further real info about the pic would be great though! Cheers

SM

Chris Goss 16th September 2019 15:36

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Here are some more photos; you can understand why I am interested to know more!

rof120 16th September 2019 16:30

No insignia ?
 
On both Dos I can't see any insignia. Isn't this odd?
Do 17s suffered heavy losses in particular at the hands of French fighters. Perhaps the German ground crews hadn't the time to paint insignia on replacement aircraft. So perhaps both these were replacement AC sent to some KG.
What we see could be a French scrapyard (containing German aircraft (too) overrun by German troops or a German one…
The French tank was obviously lost by the French.

Chris Goss 16th September 2019 16:43

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Both aircraft have the KG 76 fuselage band behind the trailing edge of the wing

schwarze-man 16th September 2019 16:54

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Well, in the first picture, it would appear that some tactical camo with the branches was needed so, maybe close to the action at some time? Looking at the detail a bit more, in the second pic you can see that the good starboard engine of the aircraft still on one leg has been properly removed since the first pic, the camo branches gone, and yet, the AFV looks the same. Note that the aircraft on it's belly has bent forward prop tips on both engines so, have probably been turning and travelling backwards at some point, its right engine has signs of a strong impact and a prop blade broken off. Also the U/C appears to have collapsed from the lowered position. In the last pic, you see the properly removed engine detail and, smashed-off but still lying on the ground, the left wing-outboard of the Port engine.
If having to judge from this, I guess the aircraft that is left on its belly came along gear down and smashed into left wing/engine of the parked aircraft with its right engine. It broke the parked aircraft wing and collapsed the left U/C. The crashing aircraft then span around 180 degrees, losing its U/C and coming to rest facing the way it had come. Speed at impact would be about 100kmh to do this damage, but not smash the aircraft.
The pics might show the initial scene when the recovery team arrived and during the initial recovery stages (removal of the undamaged engine in situ).
Just my guesses! :)
Thanks

SM

Stig Jarlevik 16th September 2019 18:49

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Further to SM's thinking, what strikes me is that it all seems to be in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't look like an Absprungplatz to me. No ground support is visible anywhere.

Perhaps a mid-air collision and a force landing close to each other? Pushed together to make the dismantling easier?

It sure looks like some soldiers have arrived to salvage the remains.

Cheers
Stig

robert 16th September 2019 20:27

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Are they from 3./KG76?

Chris Goss 16th September 2019 21:29

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
I Gruppe is all I know

Adriano Baumgartner 16th September 2019 22:31

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
I do agree with SM...

It is possible for a machine with mechanical problems to shut down the engine on the flare or just before the flare, when the pilot "assured" his landing at "Fencer Garden" (base)...the impeding energy (and probable loss of control after touching down) could have propelled the machine onto parked Dorniers, resulting on kind of accident...

Does the LW-Loss Files (VDM?) do have such kind of damage reported there?

Does the codes can be cross-checked with some crewmembers Flugbuchs?

Chris, the other pictures do give a much clearer Picture of the event than of the first one only...

IT would be amazing to discover the crewmembers and fate (and scare) they passed through...A nice set of pictures, by the way...

A.

Snautzer 16th September 2019 22:33

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
As a side note: tank has its engine cover open so prob. broken down

Chris Goss 16th September 2019 23:20

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
The only codes visible are F1 and one has the code K which is as Robert says it is 3 Staffel means F1+KL. I could not match with the QMG Returns and the chances of FB entries low to zero

ouidjat 17th September 2019 00:08

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Ham, France, area (Cambrai) Returned from raid over Chartres on 3.Jun.1940. Take-off from Köln-Ostheim. Both machines hit by fighters. 1. and 3. Staffel.
That's the best I can offer ;)
Regards,
Franck.

robert 17th September 2019 02:42

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
According to logbooks that I have they did not take off from K-Ostheim on 3.6.40.

Nick Beale 17th September 2019 09:50

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
If it’s not I./KG 76 but the III. Gruppe, then that unit had two aircraft make forced landings near St. Omer on 3 June 1940. The machines of Obltn. Klapsch and Fw. Patrzich, had both been damaged during Unternehmen Paula but of course “near St. Omer” doesn’t necessarily mean “in the same field”.

rof120 17th September 2019 17:15

KG 76 but no insignia...
 
Quote Chris: "Both aircraft have the KG 76 fuselage band behind the trailing edge of the wing."

All right (I had no idea about that ol' band) but I think it's the first time I see a photograph of Do 17(s) not sporting some STAFFEL-insignia on their nose, like the well-known singing bird ("alouette" - Lerche) or the big bomb, falling obliquely. I feel this could be a pointer to replacement aircraft in any case, either having just arrived in their Staffel or too busy for the artists to bother, for German aircrew and ground crew seem to have been really keen to proudly have their Staffel-insignia on their aircraft.

French fighter pilots really could aptly sing "Alouette, gentille alouette, alouette, je te plumerai…" (Nice skylark, I'll pluck you…)

Chris Goss 17th September 2019 17:21

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
There are quite a number of unbadged Do 17s in my forthcoming book

Graham Boak 17th September 2019 18:27

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Propeller tips are often bent forward when the engine(s) turning at impact. Remember that it is the rear of the blade that meets the air first (if this seems odd remember that the prop is seeing the sum of the forward and rotational velocities).

schwarze-man 17th September 2019 23:37

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Boak (Post 274792)
Propeller tips are often bent forward when the engine(s) turning at impact. Remember that it is the rear of the blade that meets the air first (if this seems odd remember that the prop is seeing the sum of the forward and rotational velocities).

Hi Graham. Yes, the bent forward tips from contact with turf, soil or water occur where the prop is turning under power and the blade tip chord line has a positive angle of attack to the material it is passing through. In this state, the length of blade passing through the turf, soil or water under power is usually quite short and so the deflection of the blade tip is relatively small. Usually, this is the result of a slight prop strike under power on a T/O or run-up that does not involve full or further contact. In the case of blade tips contacting when turning not under power, such as landing with reduced throttle, if the angle of attack is negative relative to the turf, soil or water they pass through, the tips will be deflected back. In both cases, if the contact develops into gross contact the blades are likely to be grossly deformed, usually ending-up bent backwards if the aircraft continues traveling forwards as the engine slows and stops.

In the case of the aircraft coded K, here fully on its belly, you can see that the left engine propeller sticking uppermost has a near 90 degree sharp bend of the last 30cm or so. Additionally, the lower blade partly visible on that engine in the first photo, looks distinctly bent forward over its length. The right engine on K, that has had a heavy impact and lost a blade, has a slightly forward bent blade. I would judge that the left engine blades were bent forwards as the aircraft finished its movement backwards with the U/C collapsing and the engine stopping in a single turn. The right engine has undergone such a heavy and complicated impact that, it is impossible to be certain from these photos exactly how that upper blade bend occurred. Cheers

SM

robert 18th September 2019 00:37

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Hi,

I have two other photos of these wrecks and I`m almost sure that they were both from 3./KG76. In one of the photo I can seen some Ju 52s parked in the background so it was an airfield. The area is quite hilly so it must be very odd airfield. Basing on other photos I think that also II./KG76 was stationed at this airfield. The problem is that I./KG76 used many forwarded airstrips and airfields. When I will find some time I will list all of these locations.
BTW it seems that F1+LL was rammed by a vehicle on the ground and its loss was rather not linked with loss of F1+KL.

Robert

schwarze-man 18th September 2019 10:32

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robert (Post 274805)
Hi,

I have two other photos of these wrecks and I`m almost sure that they were both from 3./KG76. In one of the photo I can seen some Ju 52s parked in the background so it was an airfield. The area is quite hilly so it must be very odd airfield. Basing on other photos I think that also II./KG76 was stationed at this airfield. The problem is that I./KG76 used many forwarded airstrips and airfields. When I will find some time I will list all of these locations.
BTW it seems that F1+LL was rammed by a vehicle on the ground and its loss was rather not linked with loss of F1+KL.

Robert

Hey, don't mess about put those other photo's up! :) Far better than us wondering. Please give the details about the vehicle damage to LL. That was some considerable ramming by a vehicle to break the wing off and collapse the left undercarriage! One thing I find surprising is that these two are in such close position if they were unrelated incidents. Both would be very difficult to move, esp in a forward field. Cheers

SM

Nick Beale 18th September 2019 10:36

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by schwarze-man (Post 274812)
Both would be very difficult to move, esp in a forward field. Cheers

SM

That's true, but if they were obstructing the landing area then you'd make a lot of effort to get them out of the way.

schwarze-man 18th September 2019 11:08

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
I agree Nick, they might have been dragged off. However, that would still be difficult and probably show more damage where steel cables would be used? Also, considering the difficulty in moving them, esp by dragging, it seems unlikely that they would end up positioned so close nose to nose? The tall grass or crop also seems relatively unflattened around the wrecks, I would expect to see considerable evidence of surface disruption from the dragging and towing activity. Cheers

SM

rof120 18th September 2019 19:26

Unbadged Do 17s
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goss (Post 274789)
There are quite a number of unbadged Do 17s in my forthcoming book

Interesting! It could be worthwile to try to know why they didn't sport any badges/insignia (on their nose), which I feel is rather unusual for German combat AC. No time to paint them on replacement AC? People too busy? Aircraft too busy?

According to Paul Martin in the 1991 book "Invisibles vainqueurs" French fighter pilots alone claimed exactly 90 Do 17s shot down (there were, it seems, quite a few misidentifications with Me 110s, Do 215s and Ju 86s, but conversely too so let us stick to 90 claims for the moment). Dozens more were shot down by British fighters and by various AAAs and other ground fire (machine-guns etc.). I guess these were very heavy combat losses (add accidents) for Do 17s were not so terribly numerous in May-June 1940. He 111s were more numerous and French f. pilots claimed "only" 124, possibly they were harder nuts to crack (in particular with more effective armour).

Sorry but a large part of my books etc. is buried in some boxes so I don't know exactly how many He 111s and Do 17s the Luftwaffe used in combat in May-June 1940. Most probably you know. I suspect that Do 17 losses were much heavier - in percentage - than He 111 losses. As you know only a few dozen (new) Ju 88s were deployed then.

edwest2 18th September 2019 19:48

Re: A bit of a puzzle?
 
If one aircraft was rammed by a ground vehicle, it may explain the tank in the photo. One further thought: one aircraft may have been blocking the road.


Ed


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