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-   -   56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=687)

Lagarto 7th March 2005 14:33

56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed
 
On 4 May 1943 Dave Schilling of 56th FG supposedly knocked down a British Spitfire, both part of Ramrod over the Netherlands. Can anyone confirm/deny? Thanks in advance

Franek Grabowski 7th March 2005 14:42

Ha, it was Schilling? What is your source? One Spitfire indeed returned to Northolt with some holes - there is a photo of damaged wing in Mushroom's 315 Sqn - but was it the aircraft? Two Spitfires failed to return - plenty of German claims as well. A friendly pilot had a lenghty recognition dog-fight with a Thunderbolt and as he recalled, he got really sweat when found it was an American - he realised he cannot down him but was not sure if American did the same. ;)

Lagarto 7th March 2005 15:06

Ha, it was 315 Sqn?! Quite ironic if you think of Gabreski.
Unfortunately, my source is just a loose piece of info found on some message board.
I'm just reading the "56th Fighter Group" by Roger Freeman (published by Osprey) and ther's not a word of the incident, or even about 4 May at all. So maybe, it's just a rumour. Thank you Franek for replying

Franek Grabowski 7th March 2005 15:19

I remember a note in DeDecker/Roba book(?) that it was Zemke's Wolfpack responsible for the attack but no names mentioned.
PCR of Dubielecki (pilot hit) does mention attacking Thunderbolts. Fortunatelly Gabby did not fly the mission! ;)

Christer Bergström 7th March 2005 16:13

"It proved to be another unhappy day for the 56th on withdrawal support. Near Walcheren what was taken to be an Me 109 was attacked and shot down. The victim later proved to be an RAF Spitfire." (Freeman, "The Mighty Eighth", p. 43.)

Lagarto 7th March 2005 19:11

Hi Christer! I haven't heard from you for quite a while.
Looks like unfortunately there was an actual loss of RAF Spitfire, not only a "close shave".
Any idea which squadron did the Spit come from? Franek, if you're around, could you possibly check if 315 lost any of its own on that day? I don't have the Mushroom's book you mentioned before.

Btw, Christer - how's your work on BC RS vol. III and Schuck's biography?

Franek Grabowski 7th March 2005 23:13

I do not need to check! ;)
Maciej Lipiński was downed and killed over Walcheren near Flushing. I think he was a section leader of mentioned friendly pilot. Another two pilots went down that day as well.
Anybody has any related documents?!

Six Nifty .50s 8th March 2005 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
I do not need to check! ;)
Maciej Lipiński was downed and killed over Walcheren near Flushing. I think he was a section leader of mentioned friendly pilot. Another two pilots went down that day as well.
Anybody has any related documents?!


Lipinski's Spitfire IX (EN131) was claimed as shot down by a German test pilot from the Erla Werke factory flight.

The victim shot down by the P-47 was most likely a 611 Squadron Spitfire IX (EN567) piloted by Flying Officer V. S. Neill. The RAF had him listed as "possibly hit by B-17 gunners".

The Brit writer Roger Freeman also didn't mention that the Spitfires may have attacked the Thunderbolts first. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.

Franek Grabowski 8th March 2005 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s
Lipinski's Spitfire IX (EN131) was claimed as shot down by a German test pilot from the Erla Werke factory flight.

If I can correctly decipher a poor scan of Fay's combat report, his victim was taken POW. Thus it must have been Tomasz Łęgowski of 316 Sqn. Fay is not mentioned on Tony Wood's list though.

Quote:

The victim shot down by the P-47 was most likely a 611 Squadron Spitfire IX (EN567) piloted by Flying Officer V. S. Neill. The RAF had him listed as "possibly hit by B-17 gunners".
Even worsest RAF pilot could not mistook P-47 for B-17. Certainly there was a court of inquiry which provided more details.

Quote:

The Brit writer Roger Freeman also didn't mention that the Spitfires may have attacked the Thunderbolts first. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.
Yes indeed, Americans got the reputation of attacking first and only then asking.

Christer Bergström 8th March 2005 23:28

Lagarto,

Quote:

Christer - how's your work on BC RS vol. III and Schuck's biography?
It’s going just great, thank you!

“Black Cross/Red Star”, Vol. 3 will be published quite soon - maybe this spring or summer - by Eagle Editions. I can assure you that they are working very hard to have it finished as soon as possible. See the latest updates on Eagle Editions’s website:

http://www.eagle-editions.com/BCRS.HTM

As for the Schuck book, having completed a couple of other books in the meantime, I am working on that one right now. But thanks for reminding me - I have to send a batch of new questions to Mr.Schuck. I can’t say when it will be completed, but I hope soon. See the Schuck book website for more updates:

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/


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