any MiG-1 aces
 

Good evening,

has any Soviet pilot ever attained ace status in the MiG-1 ?

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

It is not very likely. Not many were in use and they were 'easy meat'.

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

I don't think so either there is no mention of any in the Osprey book on Mig-3 aces

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hi Michael,
Why it is necessary to divide the pilots of the MiG-1 and MiG-3? These aircraft have been in units together and differed little from each other. Only the MiG-1 in all there were 100 aircraft!
By 1 June 1941, they remained 76-77 aircraft (only 55 serviceable):
- 37 (part faulty) MiG-1 were 41 IAP 9 SAD. 22-24.06.1941, the division ceased to exist (in 9 SAD was just over 230 MiG).
- 31 IAP 8 SAD had 31 MiG-1 (most faulty).
- 4 IAP (or 55 IAP) 20 SAD was only 8 MiG-1.
All these planes flew from the winter of 1941 and were badly worn.

regards,
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello,

yes, the Osprey volume mentions MiG-3 aces only.
I was wondering if any MiG-1 pilot grabbed some quick five kills in 1941, but you're right. It is very unlikely.

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

No chances, there were too fast destroyed or lost due to technical faults in June 1941, plus very bad Soviet air command. This plane did not have a radio too.

There were no such possibility, when one men used not good plane. To many factors is against this.

regards
mw

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Yeah, it stood no chance.

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Is it possible to tell a MiG-1 from a MiG-3 by their outward appearance ?

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Michael
on MiG-3 the canopy glazing was extended aft to improve the pilot's view to the rear, that was IMHO the easiest difference to notice.

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Michael.
The modifications to the Mig-1 to turn it into a Mig-3 were no different to those you find within many models of other aircraft which retained their basic name - Hurricane, Spitfire, Bf109, P-40, P-47.
Apart from the canopy change, there was also a small oil cooler duct added under the nose of the Mig-3.
The Russians have a tendency to give a slightly modified aircraft a new name - just look at their current list! - so don't get put off by that.
There were only 100 Mig-1's vs 3100+ Mig-3's, which makes the type almost insignificant, and it is also an indication that the Mig-3 was a development rather than a new design. The 100 Mig-1's were almost just prototypes for the Mig-3.
I don't want to give you new ideas, but unless you're planning on looking at aces in aircraft sub-types, I'd put the Mig-1 with the Mig-3.
Cheers
Peter

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Juha & Peter,

thanks for the info. I think I found the features you mentioned.
I acknowledge aircraft types by their official names regardless if there were major or minor differences as long as there were any.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hi Michael,
From the point of view of designers (and initially military) and the aircraft factory, both aircraft were one model. Designers (and until December 1940 the military) called MiG-1 and MiG-3 - "I-200", and in production they were called "type 61".
That the military already after launching in the series of both modifications of the "I-200" Named them in different ways, could be related to the internal policy of the NKAP and NKO.

The difference between the I-200 modifications is connected with the addition of an additional fuel tank and the correction of the shortcomings of the first aircraft, which were produced before the completion of the factory tests (and even more so before the state tests)

The motor was moved forward by 100 mm; Increased "V" of the wing; Radiator from below the other model and shifted forward; Enlarged wheels; The lower (small) chassis flaps are transferred to the "centerplane".

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good evening Juha, Peter & Kirill,

there's but one MiG-1 profile in "MiG-3 Aces of World War 2" (page 52, profile 11) by Khazanov & Medved. I cannot discern the features you told me. Is it an inaccuracy of the book (showing a MiG-3 in fact) ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Pretty sure that's a Mig-3, Michael.
Pic of Mig-1 attached. Note no air scoop under the nose, shorter rear canopy glazing and extra vertical canopy strut.
Cheers
Peter

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hi Michael,
The glazing of the cabin on the MiG-1 was changed during the production process. On the late MiG-1, the glazing of the cabin was like that of the MiG-3.
MiG-1
http://www.airpages.ru/draw/i200mod.gif
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mig1/mig1-1.gif
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mig1/mig1-2.gif
MiG-3
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mig3/mig3-1.gif
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/mig3/mig3-2.gif

The main difference is the fuel tank under the pilot seat.
Displacement of the engine can be seen from the nozzles in the top view. The wheels were 600 * 180 (MiG-1), and was 650 * 200 (MiG-3)
Cheers,
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good afternoon Kirill,

thanks for the pictures which illustrate the different features well.
The MiG looks awesome but was insufficient...just like the Pfalz D.III in WW1.
What did she lack ?

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

update: I finally found one notable pilot associated with the MiG-1.
Mikhail S. Sedov, 296. IAP, 2+5sh kills, flew initially the MiG-1, then I-16 and Yak-1.

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Michael,

Have you included this pilot for consideration in your list of MiG pilots?

http://victory.sokolniki.com/eng/His...oes/10313.aspx

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good morning Nick,

Tomas Polak indicates a total of 45 in two wars for Stepan Suprun, at least 11 of these in the MiG-3. However he acknowledged that this might not be true taking into account his early death.
http://airaces.narod.ru/china/suprun.htm

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Michael, good day
when and in what regiment did Lieutenant M.S. Sedov fly on the MiG-1? 296 IAP in June 1941 flew on the I-16 and in September 1941 withdrew to re-form. Returned in early 1942 already on the Yak-1. Sedov served on the South-Western Front from February 1942 and died in late March 1942.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good morning Kirill,

in the biographical text Polak writes that "Mikhail Sedov joined 296th IAP in October 1941, where he initially flew MiG 1s."
Oddly, in the list of known claims he writes that in late August 1941 he shot down a Bf 109 in an I-16 with 296th IAP.

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Michael Hi,
296 IAP was at the front 31.07.1941 on 01.10.1941 and flew on I-16. Then was upgraded to the Yak-1 and returned to the front 22.01.1942.
If M. S. Sedov arrived in the regiment in October 1941, maybe he was up to 295 IAP? (but 295th regiment also flew on I-16).
Perhaps in your source confused the MiG-1 and Yak-1?
Lt M.S. Sedov - 3+6 claims and 101 c.m. [according to M.Bykov].
In the award document stated that the South-Western front he was with 11.02.1942 and had by 09.03.1942 - 32 combat missions and 2+5 claims. "+5 group" claims it is 09.03.1942 (the famous battle of "7 vs 25" of Eryomin group)

Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Kirill,

yes, the evidence for Sedov flying the MiG-1 is too weak.
Does Bykov mention that plane in his Sedov text ?
Does he give the decimals of Sedov's shared kills ?

I wish you a good weekend, sincerely,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Michael,
There is no additional information on the issues. M. Bykov's information only as a commentary to the interview with Yeremin Boris Nikolayevich.
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Kirill,

Mr. Bykov might have omitted Sedov because he hasn't 5 personal kills.
However I only found him on one website:
http://wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm
which assigns him to the 969. IAP.

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

http://statehistory.ru/books/Artyem-...r--1941-1942/6
Ctrl+f - Седов
footnote [24]

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Kirill,

I'm not proficient in Russian language but as far as I understand the website mentions Sedov and the MiG-1 but not his score or his connection to the aircraft, right ?

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Michael, I do not speak English)) und Ich weiß nicht, Deutsch)
Googleit:
Yeremin B.N. - "If in this battle we were on MiG-1 or LaGG-3, its result would hardly have been the same. "MiG", when it only takes off, you must cover him yourself, it is sluggish at medium altitudes, impossible to accelerate, only at the height it gives the pilot the opportunity to feel himself normally."

This is all that is said about the MiG. The pilot's opinion, but is not the fact that he flew on this plane.
Best regards,
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Kirill,

your English is fine from my German point of view.
And you're right: the quotation doesn't prove they flew the MiG-1 in combat. But it reveals that this plane wasn't liked the the Soviet pilots.
It's odd that such a beautiful plane is so insufficient. What was the problem, technically ? A bad engine ? A bad aerodynamic design ?

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hi Michael,
the view of Yeremin has the effect of postwar official position on the MiG-3, in which a large proportion of PR. In the memoirs of the pilots who flew the MiG-3 is no such definite negative.
I have no clear opinion about the fate of the MiG-3. I consider it was one of the best aircraft in 1941, but he was unlucky on three faktors:
- problem 1 - search "suitable" engine;
- problem 2 - "Deputy Commissar of the aviation industry on the new technology" Yakovlev A. S.;
- problem 3 - the importance of the Il-2 and requirements of the country's leadership for its release.
The other problems (armament, reliability etc.) Mikoyan and Gurevich were able to solve early then their "competitors", but these three problems were not in their power.
The last MiG-3 was armed with 2 cannon ShVAK already in the spring of 1942 (La-5 with close weapons appeared in the army only in August 1942, and mass in 1943);
The MiG carried a bomb load initially and rocket launchers (the rest of The "competitors" were either not designed for this, either as the Yak-7B and Yak-9 was released later);
The MiG had a strong design with metallic center section and partly a metal shell (much stronger than Yak or LaGG/La);
The MiG had a range greater than that of Yak and LaGG;
The MiG was made at a higher level and make it easier to repair. The aircrafts produced in 1941 and flew on combat missions until mid-1944 (air defense). That's long time for not all-metal aircraft.
In fact the Yak-7B (and its receiver of the Yak-9) as a heavy fighter-bomber replaced the MiG-3, although the last MiG-3 with engine Am-38 was superior or not inferior even to these later aircraft in many faktors.

Best regards,
Kirill

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello Kirill,

thanks for these explanations.
Considering problem 2: would you say that Aleksandr Yakovlev had more personal political influence than the MiG guys ?

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Yes.

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

The original MiG-1 had an open canopy. Some were fitted with a closed canopy that opened to the side similar to the Bf 109. The model had longitudinal stability problems and control response was considered poor. Flying above 5000 m with an open cockpit must have been harsh.


The MiG-3 had the sliding glazed canopy and the upper fuselage had longer glazed panels to improve rear vision for the pilot. It was Stalin who ordered his aircraft designers to give him a fighter with a 1000km range similar to the Spitfire, hence the additional fuel tank under the pilot seat which also gave the plane a better center of gravity. The longitudinal stability problem was aided by this and the movement of the engine 9.5 cm forward. The VISh-22 variable pitch three blade propeller was replaced by the VISH-61 Sh variable pitch three blade propeller and yes, larger tires on the landing gear. Both models had a high landing speed and the under carriage was weekly designed as a result the under carriage collapsed on average every 25 landings.


There were 31 MiG-1 in Baltic Military District apparently all were assigned to the 31st IAP and based at Kovno and Karmelava. They were all either destroyed or abandoned on 22 June. Western Military District had 37 MiG-1 all of which were with the 41st IAP. All were either destroyed or (mostly) abandoned on 22 June. In Odessa Military District there were 8 MiG-1 with the 146th IAP. These survived the first days of the war, their ultimate fate is unknown to me. This is where best to look for Soviet aces flying MiG-1 mostly like scoring against the Romanian Air Force.


If the MiG-1 was disliked it was because it was difficult to fly. During the period just before the war the MiG-1 was probably neglected and left to the side of the airfield with the belief it would soon be replaced by the MiG-3 as was the case for many of the older models of fighters (I-15, older I-16 etc...)



Regards
oquaig

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good morning oquaig,

thanks for the technical explanations.
I know the following 146. IAP aces: Buyanov, Khlud, Lobov, Novoselov, Peskov, Vorozheikin. Mr. Abramov's website indicates that none of them scored in the MiG-1.
There's also a guy named Alexandr Koss but I do not know what he flew.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hi Knusel,

Just a slight update: It turns out that only 6 MiG-1 were with 146 IAP, the other two were with 55 IAP one of which was lost in a landing accident on 22 June 1941 (failure of landing struts). Just trying to be accurate.

Best wishes
oquaig

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good evening oquaig,

55. IAP was Pokryshkin's unit who according to Khazanov & Medved scored a total of 5+0sh kills in the MiG-3. But this is inaccurate, isn't it ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

For what period of time ? The question for Khazanov & Medved is their sources: some of them are good, others not so good. I find Khazanov useful but I always track down his sources and review them. Some of these sources come from Prien and some from TsAMO. Others can be dismissed as "Soviet Opera".

Best wishes
oquaig

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Good evening oquaig,

according to Mr Abramov's website
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/p/pokryshk.htm
Pokryshkin flew the MiG-3 until summer'42.
He scored at least 3,5 [3+1sh] and at most 8 [6+4sh] kills in that type.
Can we narrow the gap somehow ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Actually Abramov's site only shows four claims for Pokryshkin in the MIG-3 ( 2Me 109s, 1 PLZ, 1 Hs126). You might have a look at Denes Bernad's book "From Barbarossa to Odessa" for claims. It contains detailed account of air actions thru to October 1941.

Khazanov & Medved book on the MiG-3 is not foot noted so it is hard to track down their claims but they did list their sources:
ЦАМО РФ, ф. 35, ф. 208. ф. 221. ф. 246, ф. 319. ф. 20045, ф. 20064. ф. 202256. ф. 20425, ф. 20530,
ф 60676, ф НИИ ВВС, ф. 2-го гв. илп, ф 5-го гв, кап, 11-го гв нал, ф. 31-го пап, ф. 34-го пап,
ф. 41-го паи, ф. 115-го гв. иди, ф. 122-го иап.ф. 148-го идп, ф. 263 го идп
BA/MA RL 2 111/1177, 2 111/1178. »Flugzeugunfaelle und Verluste den (fliegende) Verbaenden»

best wishes
oquaig

Re: any MiG-1 aces
 

Hello oquaig,

as far as I can understand Mr. Abramov's website with my limited Russian skills the Pokryshkin page acknowledges 46+6sh kills of which 43+3sh are given in the list. This leaves 3+3sh kills open to further search, doesn't it ?

Cheers,

Michael