JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

I'm trying to identify a Ju88 shot down in the first raid 08:30 hrs to 10:00 hrs on the 24th August 1940.

Spitfires and Hurricanes are listed as being engaged at approx. 08:30hrs UK time while Luftwaffe records show claims for Spitfires and Hurricanes at 09:30 hrs.

The claims are from JG51 and AIl(K) Report 509/1940 has a diary from JG/51 pilot shot down 5/9/1940. For the 24th August it confirms his following operational flights
08:30 - 10:00 S England
10:30 - 12:00 Canterbury
13:15 - 14:50 Ramsgate
16:45 - 18:15 Dover

This suggest that the unit carried out 4 ops on this day.

My first question is what KG did they escort on the operation 08:30 to 10:00 hrs?

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Ross,

No evidence that the first mission by JG51 on 24 August 1940 was escort for bombers. Certainly, 9./JG51 engaged RAF fighters over 'S England' between 08.30 - 10.00 (CET) that day Lt Karl-Heinz SCHNELL claiming a 'P36' at 09.40 hours. I believe that this is the 'Spitfire' mentioned in the diary obtained from Uffz Kurt KOCH on his unscheduled stop in this country on 7 September 1940. This possibly equates to the loss of ARNFIELD of 610 Squadron who was lost over Eastry around 08.50 hours (BST) though other German pilots filed equally persuasive claims.

A pre-strike recce over Canterbury resulted in the loss of a Ju88 of 5.(F)/122 in the Channel off Boulogne. Is this the aircraft that interests you ?

According to Heinrich WEISS, elements of JG51 were certainly among Lw fighter units that provided escort for a later attack on 'Canterbury' by He111s of KG1 planned for around 10.35 (CET) that morning.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Hi Peter,

I'm looking for some clues as to the possible identity of the Ju88 claimed by Sgt R F Hamlyn off Ramsgate at approx. 8 am on the 24th.

The Battle of Britain Then and Now - Ramsey et al suggests III/KG51, One NCO killed, two missing, one NCO rescued unhurt. Kampfgeschwader "Edelweiss" - Wolfgang Dierich (English version) makes no mention. Fighter Command War Diaries Sept 1939 to Sept 1940 - Foreman lists 2 claims of destroyed by No.610 Sqn and one claim of destroyed by No.85 Sqn.

Foreman adds: "24 August 1940: I was Yellow 2. I saw three waves of bombers approaching the S coast. I attacked one of these waves in which there were about 15-18 Junkers Ju88 at about 300 - 350 yards. I received a large amount of cross fire, but I didn't open fire until 250 yards. I gave a two second burst and saw one Ju88 dive away from the rest and I watched it crash into the sea. I did not break away. but throttling back a Bf109 overshot me and pulled right up in front at about 150 yards. I opened fire and saw it starting to smoke. I followed it down and saw it also hit the sea.
Sgt R F Hamlyn, Yellow Section, 610 Sqn"

Eagle Day - Richard Collier retells this as: "Soon after 8 am on August 24, Hamyln's Spitfire, off Ramsgate, was diving from 12,000 feet onto a Junkers Ju88, hosing it with fire, watching it rip like a hydrofoil along the water's surface. Banking, he fastened on the tail of a Bf109, firing until this, too, fell, trailing a red garland of flame. By 9 am, Hamlyn was back at his home base..."

Hamlyn's Combat report for this event does not appear in AIR50 at the TNA.

AIR27/703 No.85 Sqn ORB confirms combat and claim of an Bf109 by P/O Allard 3 miles off Ramsgate at about 14,000 feet
AIR27/2106 No.610 Sqn ORB confirms combat and claims of Ju88 and Bf109 by Sgt Hamlyn at 12,000 feet stepped in 3 waves stepped line astern off Ramsgate.

Try as I might I have been unable to move beyond the BoB Then and Now suggestion of III/KG51 and any suggestions or pointers would be most welcome.

All this points to more than a lone aircraft and I was hoping to come at it from the other direction of looking to identify escort then who they were escorting.

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Ross,
Hamlyn's combat report for Aug 24 is in Air 50/172-153&154. It is on the microfilm at least, if no longer available as hard copy. Glad I had the 300 and 600 series squadron CRs microfilmed before the thief got at them.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Frank,

On the same day, in the morning, Sgt A. Glowacki (151 sqdn) claimed Bf109 destroyed NW Dover. Is there a combat report filed in Kew ?

TIA

Bertrand

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Hi Frank,

Just downloaded the pieces from the TNA

AIR50/172/153 is a report from 22/06/1943 from F/O Wood and Sgt Fallon
AIR50/172/154 is the same report.

Looking at the pdf file reference headers they seem to be AIR 50-172-0-138 and 139.

I'll get onto the TNA but in the mean time any chance of a copy or transcript from your source?

Regards
Ross

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

I don't know if this Ultra (CX/JQ/247) is of any help. Please excuse the composite image, a product of uneven lighting and the paragraph running over two pages.

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

Nick: Not wishing to go off at a tangent and noticing the mention of Brize Norton, does ULTRA say anything about Ju 88/He 111 attacks on 16 Aug 40 again Brize and Benson?
Ross: The fate of the Ju 88 of KG 51 is mentioned in Brothers in Arms

Re: JG51 Escort 24th August 1940 08:30 to 10:00
 

The only thing I can see that might be relevant is this (CX/JQ/227, T9, paragraph 14):

On 16/8 JG 2 and ZG 2 are to make their fourth attack (2nd day), probable zero hour being 0830 hours. At 1500 hours attack "LUDWIG" is expected to be made, probably by KG 54, JG 2 and possibly ZG 2. Definitive decision still to be communicated. 4 (F) 121 will make weather reconnaissance.