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-   -   The Liberal View of the German Soldier (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=16004)

Nick Beale 17th February 2009 13:44

Re: The Liberal View of the German Soldier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 81411)
Well, I am not sure if the word liberal is used properly, but it is often used to describe a rather influential leftist ideology widespread in the West. It is a matter of fact, that those circles were either pro-Soviet or pro-communistic, and were instrumental in establishing several myths about Soviets.

No Franek, it is a matter of opinion - and your opinion in particular.

Steve_Fossey 27th February 2009 02:25

Re: The Liberal View of the German Soldier
 
This first part may be somewhat tangential.What books or other sources discuss Luftwaffe pilots, their interest in American Western movies, and the use of the term Indianer?

On the main point of the thread. Liberal may not be the best descriptor of the point I think is trying to be raised. Perhaps “the popular view in English speaking nations of the German soldier” might more accurate. I have read a number of Stephen Ambrose's books and did not come away with the impression that the average German soldier was not a fine soldier.

There is a book that consciously makes the comparison. I have not read the book, but it is telling that the blurb for the book talks about the myth of German army superiority.When the Odds Were Even: The Vosges Mountains Campaign, October 1944-January 1945 (Presidio, 1994) by Keith Bonn (based on his PhD thesis in International History at the University of Chicago) considers the relative effectiveness of German and US infantry. U Chicago is a first rate university and Bonn’s background makes him very well qualified: “An infantry officer with extensive tactical experience in various command and staff positions in airborne, infantry, light infantry and joint units in Korea, Central America, and the continental United States. A ranger and master parachutist, he earned a B.S. from the United States Military Academy at West Point (USMA) with a concentration in the German language, an M.A. from the University of Chicago in European history, and a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago in International history. His doctoral dissertation became the basis for his first book,When the Odds Were Even: The Vosges Mountains Campaign, October 1944-January 1945 (Presidio, 1994). He authored the 48th, 49th, and 50th editions ofThe Army Officer's Guide (Stackpole Books, 1999, 2002, and 2005). With Master Sergeant Tony Baker, Bonn co-authoredA Guide to Military Operations Other Than War (Stackpole Books, 2000). Bonn taught various core and upper-division elective courses in history during a three-year assignment to the Department of History at USMA.”


Here is a review of the book: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...krev/bonn.html

Steve

PeterVerney 27th February 2009 15:19

Re: The Liberal View of the German Soldier
 
I think we are all being too simplistic. AND living in the modern age. Back then people thought differently. That said, man for man, I don't suppose there was a great deal of difference. The advantages the Allies had were several, pricipally that the German war machine was becoming exhausted and young , partially trained troops had to be slung in to fill the gaps. And mentally, the Germans were beginning to realise they were on the losing side, and like in playing sports or poker, one is defeated by defeatism.

Franek Grabowski 2nd March 2009 13:07

Re: The Liberal View of the German Soldier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 81588)
No Franek, it is a matter of opinion - and your opinion in particular.

What is the opinion, the fact of supportive actions of several so called intellectuals, who supported various communistic regimes?

One important thing, I believe. Here you are bio notes of figures involved in concentration camp system. It is in Polish, but this is not important. Note birth dates of those men and women, those were people mostly grown in Kaiser period, and only few may be called as being under influence of Nazi propaganda.
http://www.majdanek.com.pl/biogramy/a.html

Jukka Juutinen 22nd March 2009 19:16

Re: The Liberal View of the German Soldier
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 81588)
No Franek, it is a matter of opinion - and your opinion in particular.

No Nick, it is a hard fact. Today many of the die hard Stalinists of the 1970s have now migrated into various Green parties (e.g. Joschka Fischer) as the path to power is easier from the ranks of them vs. traditional Marxist parties. The political agenda of current Finnish president during the 1970s was little short of true Stalinism and which is today reflected in her stupid policy on landmines and civilian weapon ownership.

A great many Finnish journalists that now occupy key positions in the media are products of the so called "Tampere school", thoroughly indoctrinated by professor Pertti Hemanus, a stalinist in truest sense.

lingodog 22nd March 2009 20:15

Re: The Liberal View of the German Soldier
 
A most interesting observation. There is currently on TV a short series called "The Lost World of Communism". The first program was about East Germany and the second Czechoslovakia. The majority of people in those countries rejoiced at the fall of communism but some regretted the ending of an era. It is thought that it will take another two generations to erase the memory of those times.


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