Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=32164)

Larry Hickey 12th December 2012 21:54

Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
Hello,

This relic displays the insignia of III./JG27 and looks authentic. The seller provides information on the crash from which it was reportedly obtained, but it does not match the insignia painted on the piece of wreckage. We carry the incident reported by the seller in our EoE Luft Loss DB as:

"September 15, 1940

9./JG51 Messerschmitt Bf109E-4 (2803). Shot down in combat with fighters and crashed, and later exploded, at Skinners Corner, Mascalls, near Paddock Wood, 2.20 p.m. FF Fw Friedrich Klotz baled out but killed due to parachute failure. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Does anyone know anything further that would allow the correct attribution of this relic to a Bf109E crash during the BoB?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BATTLE-OF-...item337e7eb31c

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Cpt_Farrel 12th December 2012 22:44

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
I don't know how accurate this may be, but looking at the rivetlines on that piece, they don't match the drawings of the position were this emblem was used in 1940.

The few pics I found during a quick search that shows the emblem, it is located on the more or less square panel behind the supercharger intake. That panel should according to drawing not be riveted like in the pictures of the relic.

Furthermore, there seems to be traces of RLM75 on that piece which would indicate a later date than 1940. That's a bit uncertain though as unoffial greys was being tested during the battle.

The colors and the rivetlines combined though makes me think that the emblem comes from a later date when the emblem was carried on the enginecowling on Bf109G's. The rivet pattern matches that assumption quite well.

Cheers! / Anders

PS If you want me to send references backing my statement just let me know and I'll take care of it DS

Cpt_Farrel 13th December 2012 00:09

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
Having looked further trying to match drawings and walkaround pictures I can't find ANY version of the Bf109 that has two horizontal running double lines of rivets like in the pictures of the relic.

The problem is off course that the walk around pictures are of restored aircraft and the rivet lines might not follow the original if parts have been replaced with newly fabricated items, if then the drawings are based on the restored aircraft the error will continue to spread.

Few period photos show that kind of detail but the ones that do haven't been a match for the relic. Still looking...

Larry Hickey 13th December 2012 00:58

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
Anders,

Thanx for your analysis. This looks very authentic to me, and I doubt if anyone would go the the trouble to counterfeit something like this--the Battle of Britain makes good, logical sense, as a number of III./JG27 aircraft were shot down. I'm just pretty sure it isn't attributable to the crash the seller claims for it (9./JG51).

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

beachcomber 13th December 2012 11:29

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
Discussed here

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...111079&page=44

Beachcomber

Clint Mitchell 13th December 2012 15:33

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
Someone on the FlyPast forum bought the JG52 boar emblem mentioned on the ebay page and it turned out to be fake. Shame...

Cpt_Farrel 13th December 2012 19:02

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
I had a hard time letting this go and further checking makes me even more hesitant, the emblem looks too large compared to photos. Especially for the version used on the Bf109G but it seems a bit large for the 1940 version as well.

Adding this to my earlier doubts don't make me certain that it's fake but very doubtful.

Cheers / Anders

Andy Saunders 14th December 2012 16:05

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
I suspect very strongly that this is one of many similar pieces produced in the late 1970s and 80s by the late Alf Batt.

Clint Mitchell 14th December 2012 16:09

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
I think it would be a good idea to get as many photographs of examples of Alf Batt's creations in one place for reference. Pretty damn good at it wasn't he. Put it this way if I found one of those at a bootfair I'd be jumping around with Joy, all over the place. :D

ClinA-78 14th December 2012 16:13

Re: Seeking ID for relic of insignia from BoB of III./JG27 a/c
 
The late Mr Batt was a talented artist and... joker !


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:36.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net