First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

I am interested in the circumstances surrounding the destruction of two 9 Squadron Wellington bombers on September 4, 1939.
One was shot down by Flak off Brunsbuettel, and the other destroyed by Sergeant Alfried Held in a Bf-109 of II/JG77 operating out of Fliegerhorst Nordholz.
Can anyone please help me with information about either or both of these events which surely constitute the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII.

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

Pardon?

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

The claim is that the Wellington shot down off Brunsbuettel on September 4, 1939 was the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII.
Is this not true, Franek?
Tony

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

yes alfred held was the guy. hans trobitch was too claimed the very first by pilots in unit pilot schremacker.has said. why held" in german means hero.
he had top honors.so held was it.
Gary

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

Tony, your sentence states "the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII" which is not exactly "the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII". I have found that war on the east is often ignored, hence my reaction. No pun intended.

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

Franek; I am not one ever to forget Poland.
But I am still looking for a source of information about the first action between the LW and the RAF. Surely this subject has been covered in detail by someone in a book or article.
10 Blenheims attacked the Schillig Roads off Wilhelmshaven on September 4. The Admiral Scheer's KTB says the alarm went off at 1752 hours as two bombs fell on the ship from what the sailors identified to be He-111. Scheer claims it shot down 3 Blenheims and also a Bf109, which presumably was flying a standing patrol from Jever and was the first LW casualty in the West. Is this true and does anyone know who the pilot and the unit was? 5 of the 10 attacking Blenheims were shot down, but not by the LW but by the Kriegsmarine and 2 Marineartillerieabteilung, later 2 Marineflakbrigade.
Meanwhile another 5 Blenheims and 12 Hampdens from 49 and 83 Squadrons at Scampton (two of which were piloted by Guy Gibson and Leonard Snaith) got lost over Heligoland and returned to base. The Hampden sorties are not mentioned in Middlebrook's Bomber Command War Diaries.
14 Wellingtons (6 from 9 Squadron at Honington and 8 from 149 Squadron at Mildenhall) were sent to Brunsbuettel to attack shipping in the entrance to the Kiel Canal. One bombed Esbjerg in Denmark. 2 were lost, one to Flak and one to Alfred Held operating out of Nordholz.
I wonder if anyone can throw light on how and where these two Wellingtons came down in what seems to have constituted the first LW victory over the RAF?

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

The unit which intercepted the British bombers was II./JG 77 which reported three kills of which two were confirmed as follows:
Lt. Metz claimed a Blenheim NE of Wilhelmshaven but he had no witnesses, thus it was awarded to the flak units.
Fw. Held claimed a Wellington at 1815 over Brunsbüttelkoog for his first victory ten minutes before Fw. Troitzsch claimed a Wellington for his first kill, thus making Held the victor over the first British aircraft in air combat during WW 2.

No Bf 109s were lost that day nor were any damaged in combat. The aircraft of Lt. Falke 2./ZG 26 was lost on take-off due to engine failure. I believe that this unit never made contact with the British bombers. The British claimed one German aircraft shot down, although none was lost to the bombers.

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

Tony,

The book Fledgling Eagles describes that day and losses in details.

Regards,
Michal

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

Thank you everybody. All my questions are answered. The information that no Bf109 was lost that day is surprising, but you are the experts.
Tony

Re: First Luftwaffe victory over RAF
 

Hello all,

2./ZG 76 lost a Me 109D-1 on 4 Sep 39 - Leutnant Hans Fake kia. Cause: Motorschaden. Crashed near Mellum, north of Wilhelmshaven. (Source: Prien et all, JFV, Teil 2, page 557)

Best wishes
Rob