List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hello,

This is a working list that I put together from all sources available to me at present, and covers pilots who scored all or a large number of their victories with Bf110 units during 1939-40. Gentzen, for example, scored many of his early victories with the 109, but still made a number of claims while a Bf110 pilot. This only covers pilots with 10 or more victories to their credit and who served with ZG units during that period. I'm working to extend this list down to five victories, but that is not yet ready for posting. Since many of these pilots are poorly documented from a research standpoint, I thought that this might stimulate comments and additional info to further refine this list. This is part of a much larger project, a very small part of which is to fully document all the victory claims of the ZG/LG units that flew the Bf110 during 1939-40. I'm also trying to document the markings of as many of these pilot's aircraft as possible, so if you know of photos from other than standard reference sources, I'd like to hear about them. Remember, I'm only working on material through the end of 1940, which for 110 units, is essentially through the end of the Battle of Britain. If you want to provide comments, corrections of additional info to this list, please cite your sources. You can also contact me through the personal message board. Some of these pilots have also been discussed on recent posts I've made regarding lists of "aces" of some of the ZG units.

TOP SCORING Bf110 Pilots in 1939-40

1) Oblt Hans-Joachim Jabs 19 victories 6./ZG 76
2) Hptm. Johannes Gentzen 18 victories Stab/JGr 102 & Stab I./ZG 2
3) Lt. Hans Schmid 15 victories I./ZG52 & II./ZG 2 (Staffels unk)
4) Lt. Walter Manhart 13 victories 3./ZG26 & 6./ZG 26
5) Oblt. Sophus Baagoe 13 victories 8./ZG 26
6) Lt./Oblt. Eduard Tratt 12 victories 1./ZG 1 & 2./ZG 2
7) Oblt. Rolf Kaldrack 12 victories 4./ZG 1 & 7. & Stab III./ZG 76
8) Hptm. Erich Grothe 12 victories 2./JGr 102 & Stab II./ZG 76
9) Oblt.-Hptm. Heinz Nacke 12 victories 6./ZG 76
10) Oblt. Wilhelm Herget 12 victories 6./ZG 76
11) Fw. Herbert Kutscha 11 victories 6./ZG1 & 9/ZG76
12) Lt. Richard Marchfelder 10 victories Stab II./ZG1 & Stab. III./ZG76
12) Fw. Johannes Lutter 10 victories 4./ZG 1 & 9./ZG76
13) Lt. Kurt Sidow 10 victories 9./ZG 26
14) Oblt. Walter Borchers 10 victories 4./ZG 76
15) Lt. Helmut Müller 10 victories 13.(Z)/LG 1
16) Lt. Hugo Adametz 10 victories 14.(Z)/LG 1

Note: I have been unable to document the 19th victory of Oblt. Jabs, so if anyone knows the dates of all 19 of his victories, I'd especially like to hear about it..

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Add:
Fw. Walter Scherer, 10 vict., JGr 102, ZG 26, POW 25.09.40.

As far as I know, Lutter got RK 05.10.1941 with 6./ZG 1, together with his StaKa Oblt.Gunther Tonne on the same day, for 7 victories, 15 tanks and 30 aircrafts destroyed on ground.
As far as I know: Groth

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Larry:

about #19 victory of Jabs.

As my list shows it with 9./NJG 3, but strage, I looked now in book >Night fighter aces", and see photo of Bf110E-1, M8+IP, W.Nr.3866.

It directly shows 19 victory bars on fin.

So, that means that he had 19 victoryes with 6./ZG 76.

Weird.

I have no idea, really.

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi All

I have an extract from Aircraft Illustrated Extra (issue unknown) with Jabs victory list and it differs as follows
Victory date victim
1 12.5 Hawk 75A
2 13.5 MS 406
3 15.5 MS 406
4 15.5 MS 406
5 29.5 Spit
6 29.5 Spit
7 7.6 MS 406
8 15.8 Spit
9 15.8 Spit
10 15.8 Hurr
11 30.8 Hurr
12 31.8 Spit
13 1.9 Spit
14 1.9 Spit
15 1.9 Hurr
16 4.9 Spit
17 4.9 Hurr
18 7.9 Spit
19 11.9 Spit

Must be very old since I had no "historical" background at the time myself
Cheers
Stig

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi,

Larry the second victory from 29.05.40, claimed at 14.10, was not confirmed perhaps this is a reason for this difference?

Regards

Robert

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Hist...ictures/06.jpg

This is the photo I mean. Unfortunatly, in Web it is in bad quality. But You may have in better in some books.

The differense is - From list by Stig:
and from Tony Woods list there are only 1 claim:

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hello,

Thanks for the discussion about the 19th victory by Jabs. I'm almost certain that this is the explanation for the discrepancy. So he had 18 "confirmed" victories and one "probable" as we say in the USA, to reach his total of 19 for his RK, with the "probable" never being officially confirmed.

Thanx,

Larry

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Unconfirmed and probable are two different things.

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi all!

Luftwaffe pilots never score Probable claims. Look on Walter Nowotny photo when he was captured with chield showing "Congratulations with 300th victory!". But "officialy" he had only 255 on Ostront.

They just OR confirm it (even really strange and optimistic claims as Hartmann's or Rudorffer's) and pilot could place abschussebalken on fin, OR NOT confirm it, and it was no matter how many "unconfirmed" victories pilot has - they never counts officially.

So, if as we all see M8+IP show us 19 confirmed victories, we need to find "missed" victory.

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Evigny

The claims of the 15/5/40 and 15/8/40 that you state as not being in Tony Woods list, I believe they are included but under Jabs Bf 'Uffz Erich Weissflog.'

15.05.40Uffz. Erich Weissflog 6./ZG 76 Morane £ Montcornet: 800 m. 14.25 Film C. 2035/II VNE: ASM
15.08.40Uffz. Erich Weissflog 6./ZG 76 Hurricane £ - 18.45 OKL C. 2031/I Nr. 51037/41

There is also another for the 15/5 for Wiessflog at the same time (14.25) but I think this is a double up.

15.05.40 Uffz. Erich Weissflog 6./ZG 76 Morane £ Montcornet: 800 m. 14.25 OKL C. 2036/I Anerk: Nr.-

In addition 2 of the claims for Jabs on the 4/9/40 are at the same time (14.07) which could possibly be a double up in Woods list.

04.09.40 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Jabs 6./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 14.07 OKL C. 2031/I Nr. 54350/41
04.09.40 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Jabs 6./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 14.07 OKL C. 2031/I Nr. 54350/41

If you include these adjustments the total is 19 in accordance to Stigs list.


Regards,

Craig..

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Gentlemen,

All of your imputs and comments are much appreciated. I believe that this resolves the long-standing mystery about Jabs and his RK during 10.40 for 19 victories, and photos of his rudder at the time with 19 victory tabs.

My thanks to you alll,

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

It is quite misleading to equate the bars on a rudder with the officially confirmed total as has been pointed out here. As we all know the Luftwaffe confirmation prossess could take months or even years to complete. However pilots would have their rudder scores updated at the time of the claim. There are numerous examples which can be sited, the earliest I know of is Werner Mölders in Spain where he had 15 bars on the tail of his Bf 109 although only 14 were "official."

Tom

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi all

Very interesting thread which I thought I would hijack.

In 1992 a Bf110 E-2 (CD+MV) coded M8+ZE of 6.(Z)/JG5 was recovered it was found to carry five victory markings on the tail, one RAF and four Russian. Unfortunately all were unreadable (I never got to see them first hand) but the last victory was dated 15.8.41.These victories belong to when the Bf110 belonged to Stab/ZG76 who were in Norway at the beginning of the Russian campaign in the Arctic Circle?

What I had from 1995

In early 1941, the I/ZG76 Gruppe returned to Germany from Norway, but 110’s of the 2 staffel stayed in Kirkenes with the Zestoyerkette of JG77. In May 1941 the III/ZG76 was disbanded, returning to Germany. Finally, in the Autumn the last Gruppe, the II/ZG76 was itself disbanded. With ZG76 no longer existing, the Stab was in limbo. It is thought stab, aircraft from 2/ZG76 and Jagdkette JG77 operated as an enlarged unit in Northern Norway. It is believed that the staff flight acted as Jafü, a command structure co-ordinating all heavy fighter operations in Luftflotte 5. It is thought that M8+ZE possibly stayed with this new enlarged unit Autumn of 1941 before returning to the 'Werft' (Maintenance Unit) at Stavanger, where it was used as a familiarisation aircraft for new ZG aircrews. Here it stayed until it leftstavanger on 13 February 1942 via aalborg-Copenhagen-Konigsburg-Reval-Helsinki-Pori-Rovaniemi before arriving at Kiestinki on 23th February 1942 when it immediatey began operations with 6.(Z)/JG5 but the codes were never changed. It was lost still carrying M8+ZE on 11th March 1942.

Bit vague I know. We know that Gerhard Schaske flew M8+YE and had 18 victories? but I do not know who the other Stab pilots were or who might have flew M8+ZE. A very long shot but thought I would ask.Any ideas?

regards

Mark

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Craig: tanks, much appreciated.

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Gents:

What is known about this "ace"?

Fw. Walter Scherer, 10 vict., JGr 102, ZG 26, POW 25.09.40.

As far I have nothing about him :( As far as he had no claims with J.Gr.102 (on Bf109D-1), so I beleive all his 10 victories are made flying Bf110.

As far as he was shot down and Prisoned - may be there are record in ZG 26 losslist, what aircraft did he flew.

Also, Is it possible to find out RAF pilot whot shot him down?

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Laryy:

Here follows what I found about Oblt. Harald Zimmermann:

As You mentioned, he flew with 3./ZG 2, and Roberts version about 3M+HL was Zimmermann's aircraft seems to me very good, because individual letter "H" is deal with first letter of hia name "Harald".

I./ZG 2 was disbanded 9.40, remaining crews and aircrafts was absorbed by other Zerstorer Gruppen (I beleive mainly I./ZG 26 - there are photo of Bf110D-3 of I./ZG 26 with white nose and with II./ZG 2 emblem visible through it).

Oblt. Zimmermann, as one of very few survivors of ZG 2, moved to I./ZG 26.

He flew during Balkan campaign and Barbarossa operation in 1941.

I./ZG 26 was disbanded on 4.42, and was absorbed by ZG1 and ZG2 (new formed at that time).

Oblt. Zimmermann moved to StaKa of new formed 3./ZG 2 (what a circle!).

11.06.42, he was shot down and wounded (together with his Bf Uffz. H.Stump) by enemy fire in his Bf110E-2 of 3./ZG2, over Pechenegi (Печенеги), W.Nr.3893, 50%.

After his recovery, he was posted to III./ZG 1 (as StaKa of 9./ZG 1???) as his I./ZG 2 was disbanded on 8.42, with pilots absorbed by III./ZG 1(mainly) and NJG4.

On 05.11.42 Hptm. Harald Zimmermann was injured, when his Me210A (W.N.r.177) crashed following engine damage, near Araxes.

On 22.12.42 Me210A-1 of StaKa 8./ZG 1 Hptm. Heinrich Saß crashed on take-off for combat mission from Trapani airfield. Both pilot and bortfunker were killed. Unfortunatly, bombs, loaded in crashed Me210, exploaded, and Hptm. Harald Zimmermann was one of those who was killed by explosion.

But I still have no hos photo :(

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi Evgeny,

Fw.Scherer flew with the 8/ZG26. He made six victories with this unit and one with other unit - so totally he has 7 claims. During the Polish Campaign in 1939 he was with 2/ZG2.

Regards

Robert

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi, Robert.

Yes, I found it now, thx. Weird, didnt saw it before :)

25.01.40 Fw. Walter Scherer: 1 2./JGr. 102 Blenheim  S. Duisburg 15.20 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. II - 32
27.05.40 Uffz. Walter Scherer 8./ZG 26 Hurricane  - 16.10 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
14.06.40 Uffz. Walter Scherer 8./ZG 26 Spitfire  - 17.12 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
10.07.40 Uffz. Walter Scherer 8./ZG 26 Hurricane  - 15.15 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
29.07.40 Uffz. Walter Scherer 8./ZG 26 Hurricane  - 18.25 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
18.08.40 Uffz. Walter Scherer 8./ZG 26 Spitfire  - 14.25 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
03.09.40 Gefr. Heinz Schumacher 8./ZG 26 Spitfire  - 11.27 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr.
03.09.40 Uffz. Walter Scherer 8./ZG 26 Spitfire  - 11.30 OKL C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -


I just saw Petr Kacha's list show him with 10 victories... Strange.

Stab.(Z)/JG "Stavanger"
 

I have a photo of M8+YE, showing 12 air victory bars and 2 ships on fin. And that is Bf110E-2 of Hptm. Gerhard Schaschke.

Unfortunatly, have no idea too :(

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Evigny

When Walter Scherer was taken prisoner on 25/9/40 his Bf was Gefr. Heinz Schumacher (who was killed). I note that Schumacher is credited with a claim on 3/9/40 in Tony Woods list and if he was Scherer’s regular Bf. it is likely that this is one of the missing claims.

Regards,

Craig...

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Evgeny :) Eugen... Eugene :) Евгений.

Thx for this info. It confirmes that bortfunkers claims were included to "crew" score, but listed as "personal" victoryes of pilot. For example in VVS, in Il-2 units, there were usually "shared aces" because this type of claims scored as "shared" (no matter with whom - with another pilot or with own crew member).

So, Larry, the final list would be as follows:

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi

The 1.Victory of Scherer was at Diesberg, not Duisburg. He fly a Me Bf 109 D. See the remains of the Blenheim.

Greetings Christian

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

11-03-1942
Bf110 E-2, 6.(Z)/JG 5, Kirkenes, WNr. 4502, M8+ZE, 100%
Pilot - Uffz. Emil Gross (WiA)
Shot down by MiG-3 of 147 IAP, crashed SW of lake Ordozero, S of Louhi.

Stab./ZG 76 used following codes:

M8+XA, Oberstleutnant Walter Grabmann (Geschwader Kommodore)
M8+YA, Hptm. Gerhard Schaschke (duty is unknown for me - May be Geschaderadjutant?)
M8+ZA, pilot unknown (Uffz. Gross could took this aircraft from usual pilot when was shot down in it)

I have a photo of Bf110E-2, flown by Hptm. Gerhard Schaschke.

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Hi
Hope this clears up Jabs missing ZG claims. Erich Weissflog was his gunner, who made the second MS406 claim on 15th May 1940, and the second Hurricane claim on 15th August 1940! Weissflog rose to the rank of Oberleutnant, and attended the Ritterkreuz.

Regards

Johannes

Re: List of "aces" in Bf110 units during 1939-40 with 10 or more victories
 

Evgeny

The three/fou Bf110s were M8+XE, M8+YE and M8+ZE

Grabmann flew X
Schaschke flew M8+YE
There is a photo showing M8+YE
Can't find it though. Beleive he was Adjutant.

http://zg48voss.narod.ru/zg_exp_schaschke.htm

Other was M8+ZE. Unknown pilot.

regards

Mark