Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

Good Evening,

From Manfred Boehme, JG 7: The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945. (Schiffer, 1992), p.51:

"... In addition to Schreiber's kill only two other victories are known to have been scored in the first half of August: a Mosquito shot down at 8,000 meters over the Ammersee (at 1536) by Lt. Weber, and a Flying Fortress, the first four-engine bomber of the US 8th Air Force to fall victim to the guns of the Me 262..."

Boehme's details of Weber's claim seem to be the same categories of details found in the microfilms of the BA-MA. Yet for this claim Tony Woods only refers to a secondary source without any details:

"Supplemental Claims from Sources:
08.08.44 Ltn. Joachim Weber Erp. Kdo. 262 Mosquito - Reference: W.J.A.W.MSS."

Is this an error of omission on Woods' part and there is a claim in the microfilms? or did Boehme have some other source for all these details?

Best regards,

Jim Geens

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

Hello JIM.

The magnificente work "The 2nd TAF" by Thomas and Shores do inform, on pgs. 251-252 (Vol.2) the following relevant loss for the day:

Around 17:25hs, a 140 Squadron Mossie PR.XVI serial MM274 (previously hit by fighter) crashed landed at RAF Northolt. Crew: F/O H. K. Joseph and F/O F. G. Lewis (but safe).

There was another 140 Squadron loss, around 12:20hs, but the huge work do inform they were hit by Flak over Boulogne. The Nav. was wounded. It seems a bit far away for a Kommando Nowotny or EKdo 262 claim, though; so must certainly (it was checked by those most acredited Historians) a Flak hit (we must remember that several RAF airmen - Bomber Command - told on debriefings they were hit by Flak, etc...but actually they were hit by a night-fighter, as Historians proved later....there is at least also one KGr 100 crew that tought they were hit by Flak, when actually they were hit by the Beaufighter of Cunningham, DSO, DFC, etc....just to remember that what one believes is not almost 100% the truth).

The first 140 Squadron machine CAN be that one hit by Weber....I do have the 544 Squadron ORB, but not here...so perhaps others can add additional information regarding, most probably, a PR Mosquito. We can not forget the 25th B.G. that also operated PR Mosquitos, but with the US Army Air Force and may have suffered losses.

Adriano B.

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

I do have the book "The Me 262 Combat Diary" by Harvey and Foreman, but it is NOT available at hands now (stored some 400 km away)...so maybe someone who do have it in hands can add something for that claim and day.

Adriano B.

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

JIM,

My appologies for my ERROR in decyphering the codes on the "2nd TAF"....e/f = engine failure...so rule out this machine as a probable for Weber...

MM274 lost one engine while approaching to land:
Engine cut returning from PR mission overshot landing RAF Northolt 8.8.1944
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=166271

MY MISTAKE and I do apologize (all members)

Adriano B.
Crew:
F/O (133.421) Herbert Kenneth JOSEPH (pilot) RAFVR - Ok
F/O (156.275) Frederick George CLIFFORD (nav.) RAFVR - Ok

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

This site: http://www.americanairmuseum.com/mis...=1944&month=08
do inform some missions carried out by the 25th Bomb Group on that day, including DH98 H2X scope photo sorties. (one Scouting mission, one WX recon mission, one WX recon mission over the Ocean and one sortie do Bizau – from Russia to Italy - shuttle mission). Apparently, NO losses recorded...although one of the crews (the last crew on the Shuttle mission?) may have been intercepted...

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

Hi Adriano,

From Foreman & Harvey, The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary. (Air Research Publications, 1996), p.45:

"... On August 8th, Leutnant Joachim Weber shot down a 540 Squadron reconnaissance Mosquito near Ohlstadt at 15.38 hours. Both Flight Lieutenant Desmond Matthewman and Flight Sergeant William Stopford were killed. ..."

Best regards,

Jim

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

what is Joachim Weber definite final score ?

Have a good start into the new week,

Michael

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

Hi Knusel,

While we both know that there is nothing "definite" about claims, this is what I have found so far on Joachim Weber.

1. Early claims: one place to look before checking Tony Woods lists is the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries of deZeng and Stankey. They often use claim lists to establish dates and units. For Joachim Weber they give three early dates: 28.07.43, 10.10.43 and 22.12.43. Checking Tony Woods I found that Weber, indeed, on 28.07.43 claimed a Lightning in the Mediterranean theatre; on 10.10.43 a B-17 in the West, but there is nothing in Woods for 22.12.43, although I suspect there should be one.

2. Jet claims: checking Foreman & Harvey, Me 262 Combat Diary, (1990) against Smith & Creek, ME 262 Volumes Two and Three, (1998, 2000), I find they are consistent about the following nine claims by Weber: 08.08.44 Mosquito; 14.09.44 Mosquito; 18.09.44 Mosquito; 02.12.44 P-38; 03.02.45 B-17; 24.02.45 P-51; 14.03.45 P-51; 15.03.45 B-24 and 15.03.45 B-24. However, while Foreman & Harvey ascribe a B-17 to Weber at the time of his death on 21.03.45, Smith & Creek, Boehme and Forsyth make no such claim.

DeZeng and Stankey make the statement, "Credited with 11 victories." That is the number of claims I have found so far too.

Hi Adriano,

You are probably right about it being an American Mosquito that Weber claimed on 08.08.44. From Smith & Creek, ME 262 Volume Two, p.251:

"On 8 August Lt. Joachim Weber of EKdo 262 shot down the unit's second Mosquito, an aircraft from the U.S. 802nd Reconnaissance Group, over the Ammer See, south-west of Munich..."

As there is no MACR for a 25th BG-802nd RG aircraft, this is probably the one in your post above.

best regards

Jim

Re: Ltn. Joachim Weber's claim of 08.08.1944
 

Hello Jim,

thanks for your answer.
Info about Joachim Weber in the web is rather scarce
his alledged total ranges from 9
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/germany-ww2.html
to 13.
http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_007.php

Have a good start into the new week,

Michael