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-   -   F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=8058)

Adriano Baumgartner 13th March 2007 18:05

F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hello to all friends!
I am deeply interested in discovering the identity of the Italian pilot who shot down F/L James Chilton Francis Hayter ( later DFC* ) who was flying a Hurricane of 33 Squadron on 12th June 1942. He was shot down by this Macchi Mc202 and when he was trying to land his damaged bird, the Italian passed in front of his guns. Result: Both were shot down and it seems later that the Italian was captured and drunk with Hayter!
Any DATA about the fact would be very nice!
Thanks for all
A. Baumgartner

Gianandrea Bussi 13th March 2007 20:02

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
May you give any detail about place and hour?
Thanks

Gianandrea

Andy Fletcher 13th March 2007 23:05

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hi Adriano.

Aces High Vol II, by Chris Shores, says the incident occured 02Jul42. The Italian pilot in question was S.Ten Italo Alessandrini of 90ª Squadriglia/10° Gruppo/4° Stormo CT who became a POW.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Adriano Baumgartner 14th March 2007 20:27

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hi Andy!
Thank you all for the information, but actually I got in touch wih him and he sent me a small account of his career. It seems, from his personal DATA, the the action took place on 17th June 1942. Perhaps he was wrong, but we had to check 33 Squadron ORB´s.
I will check with him and also the information you put there Andy. Do you have any 33 Squadron loss on 17th June recorded? Thanks a lot!
Adriano Baumgartner

Adriano Baumgartner 14th March 2007 20:28

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
I had posted the wrong date on the firs thread. It is in FACT 17 June 1942. I do have his letter on my hands...

Andy Fletcher 15th March 2007 09:52

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hi Adriano,

Unfortunately I haven't got access to the 33 Sqn ORB.

There is definitely some confusion about the date of the incident because in Vol I of Aces High the date is given as between 17-22Jun42 but Vol II corrects this to 02Jul42 stating that "Italian records indicate that this engagement probably took place on 02Jul42".

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Adriano Baumgartner 15th March 2007 15:34

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hello Andy!
Yes, the records seems a bit troubled. I found, after you gave me a name to search for this information on Italian Biplanes Aces site ( Italian biplane fighter aces - Ranieri Piccolomini Clementini Adami.htm ):

In the morning on 12 June, 14 MC.202s from the 10o Gruppo led by the Gruppo commander Maggiore Paolo Tito Maddalena, together with German Bf109s were escorting Luftwaffe Ju87s to attack targets south-east of Acroma. At 3500 meters halfway between Ain el Gazala and Acroma the 84a Squadriglia (Capitano Franco Lucchini, Sottotenente Paolo Berti, Maresciallo Luigi Bignami, Sergente Maggiore Mario Veronesi, Sergente Roberto Ugazio and Sergente Piero Buttazzi) was attacked by three diving Spitfires. The formation broke up, while the 90a Squadriglia (Capitano Piccolomini, Sottotenente Virgilio Vanzan and Sergente Gregorio Taverna) counter-attacked and scattered the Spitfires. Soon after this, these three pilots spotted a lone P-40, which was hit several times. The P-40 made a wheels-up landing at Gambut and was claimed as a shared victory. After this was, Taverna shot down by ground fire. Vanzan was also hit over Tobruk, but was able to return at Martuba. Meanwhile Lucchini, Buttazzi and Veronesi had met eleven RAF fighters (Spitfires and P-40s) north-east of El Adem. In the combat, they claimed a shared Spitfire and damaged many others.
On 1 July the 10o Gruppo transferred to Fuka. Next day, on 2 July whilst leading the 90a Squadriglia, Piccolomini encountered nine Bostons escorted by twenty P-40s north of Fuka. The Italian fighters attacked and Piccolomini claimed a Boston while the other bombers hid in a cast of clouds.
The escorting fighters engaged the Italians and Sottotenente Virgilio Vanzan claimed one and one probable P-40s while Sergente Maggiore Amleto Monterumici claimed a second P-40. A third P-40 was claimed as a shared by all the pilots of the 90a Squadriglia. Several more aircraft were claimed damaged by Vanzan, Monterumici, Sergente Elio Trevisan and Tenente Italo Alessandrini (MC.202 "90-12" MM 7792). The latter was subsequently hit by P-40s, made an emergency landing on the desert, and was captured to become a POW.

You can see that on 2nd July the Italians met some P-40! Were they so wrong in identifying their enemy counter-part? There is a good difference between a P-40 and a Spitfire, even in the air!
Will keep researching...principaly about 17th June!
Glad for answering

Håkan 15th March 2007 20:07

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hello,

Interesting topic!

I can't find any 10o Gruppo losses at all on 17 June. They were however in combat with P-40s and Bostons in the Sidi Rezegh area. At least Franco Luccini (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_lucchini.htm) claimed one P-40 and Angelo Savini (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_savini.htm) claimed two more.

Italian sources gives the loss of Alessandri to the 2 July 1942 (the last pilot from the 4o Stormo to becom PoW).

Regarding the misidentification of the P-40 versus the Spitfire, this was quite common, at least as far as my own research.

Best wishes/Håkan

michele-palermo 7th July 2014 19:58

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
After a long time....
It doesn't seem likely that happened on the 2 July. More likely on 12 June. May I ask which source reports the latter date?

Alex Smart 9th July 2014 22:45

Re: F/L James C F Hayter shot down by a Macchi Mc 202
 
Hello,

From what I understand from 33's ORB and "A" & "B" flight data.

03/06/1942 - F/Lt. Hayter DFC joined "B" flt in the PM.
07/06/1942 - F/Lt. Hayter DFC -Hurricane '884. "A" flt. Local.
08/06/1942 - F/Lt. Hayter DFC -Hurricane '781. "B" flt. Scramble.
11/06/1942 - F/Lt. Hayter DFC -Hurricane '929. "B" flt. Patrol.(flown by others after this date).
15/06/1942 - F/Lt. Hayter DFC -Hurricane '960. "A" flt. To base.

No further entries in June for F/Lt. Hayter. and not named in July's lists.

Squadron later in the month received its first Hurricane IIc's.

From 5th July he was with 274 Sqdn.

Alex


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