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-   -   German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others... (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1262)

HGabor 13th February 2014 12:15

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
This is good. Note: Stuhlweissenberg (in German) is the city of Székesfehérvár, one of the main areas where the big, 1945 spring battles took place. Area of Germany's very last Panzer (counter)offensive in WWII, - started on March 6, 1945. (This explains the Xtremely high loss-rates in the reports during the month.)

Gabor

HGabor 13th February 2014 13:24

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
Folks,

Few samples of small, but 100% accuracy claims over Hungary during the long-range, Yugoslav partisan supply-drop missions in 1944:

Fw. Eckart Ulmer's (8./NJG 6) two, 100% victories:

Date ........Reported AC......Real victim:
09/10.08.44. Mitchell ……….....B-25C-15-NA, S/N: 42-32474, tactical: red '12', 5 GvAD DD, 14 GvAP DD, gv.k-n Karakozov crew, 6 KIA. Crashed in a forest between Kismányok and Nagymányok, Hungary.

09/10.08.44. Mitchell ……….....B-25D-30-NC, S/N: 43-3507, tactical: red '4', 5 GvAD DD, 14 GvAP DD, gv.l-t Pchelov crew, 5 KIA. Crashed in a house in Akasztó, Hungary. 1 resident also killed.

Ofw. Josef Federle (8./NJG 6) 100% victory:
Date ........Reported AC......Real victim:
10/11.08.45. Mitchell ……….....B-25D-20-NC, S/N: 41-30612, 5 GvAD DD, 22 GvAP DD, tactical: red '45', gv.p.p-k Galinski crew, 6 KIA/POW/MIA. Crashed on the market place of Martonos, Hungary. (now: Serbia)

...and an overclaim, - no matter what he reported:
Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen's (8./NJG6 Me 110G-4) overclaim:

Date ........Reported AC......Real victim:
10/11.08.44. Mitchell ……….....Overclaim, only damaged near Szolnok, Hungary. 337 AP DD B-25 returned with 75 hits with gv.l-t Fedorov's crew onboard. (See part of long mission-report below. Note it says: Do 217!)

Oblt. Wilhelm Johnen's (8./NJG6 Me 110G-4) 100% victory:

Date ........Reported AC......Real victim:
15/16.08.44. Mitchell ……….....B-25C-15-NA, S/N: 42-32523, 5 GvAD DD, 337 AP DD, tactical: red '71', gv.k-n Kravtsov crew, 5 MIA at Márkusfalva, Hungary. (now: Croatia)

Etc, etc, etc, etc....

Gabor

Juha 13th February 2014 15:09

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
Hello Gabor
thanks again for really outstanding inputs!

Juha

HGabor 13th February 2014 16:44

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
You're welcome!

Some additional info to the prev. Mitchell NJG claims from soviet long-range mission plans/reports (TsAMO archives, Russia):

August 9/10, 1944: Samarica (Croatia) partisan supply-drop mission without landing.
Soviet long-range 14 GvAP DD assigned 7 Mitchells for the mission. Take-off time: 21:30 - 21:35 PM at Kalinovka. Drop zone: Samarica (Croatia):

B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....507, red '4' (S/N: 43-3507, lost at Akasztó, Hungary AFTER supply-drop. Last radio signal received from plane at 01:40 AM saying: crossed line "2" - (Code of the Danube river en route home. R-2600-13 engines: 43-21824 and 43-23496. Pilots: Pchelov in left, Eremeev in right seat.)
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....362, red '5'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....474, red '12' (S/N: 42-32474, lost at Nagymányok, Hungary BEFORE drop. R-2600-13 engines: 43-21653 and 43-21678. Maintenance note: the 5th cylinder of engine no.43-21653 was replaced on July 28, 1944. Plane itself was received by 4 GvAD between May 20-25, 1943. Pilots: Kolyashkin in left, Karakozov in right seat.)

B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....394, red '14'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....588, red '25'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....389, red '22' - ABORTED MISSION!
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....369, red '7'

No.'22' was aborted, six planes flew the mission. Red '4' and '12' was shot down by Fw. Eckart Ulmer, the rest: red '5, 7, 14, 25' returned OK between 04:00-10 AM.

August 10/11, 1944: partisan supply-drop mission without landing near Gagintsi.
Soviet long-range 22 GvAP DD assigned 11 (8+3) Mitchells for the 2 missions. One was lost, the rest returned OK:

B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....247, red '36'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....587, red '37'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....123, red '39'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ...569?, red '34'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....612, red '45' (S/N: 41-30612, lost at Martonos, Hungary. R-2600-13 engines: 42-76955 and 42-76809.)
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '46'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '59'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....375, red '58'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '56'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....333, red '60'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....782, red '*' (Reg. Commander's Red Star marking on tail, - No number sign)

Red '45' was shot down by Ofw. Josef Federle, the rest returned OK. Another, 337 AP DD plane from their 8+3 Mitchells flying this mission received 75 hits in a dogfight near Szolnok, but returned. Note: on August 10/11, 1944 22 GvAP DD and 337 AP DD flew 2-2 different missions to different target zones: 22 GvAP DD: Gagintsi 8 planes (red '36, 39, 45, 46, 59, 58, 56, 60'), Bu Ban'(?) 3 planes (red '*, 71, 83'). 337 AP DD: Bu Ban'(?) 8 planes (red '61, 63, 73, 74, 82, 85, 84, 87'), Lizard(?) 3 planes. 14 GvAP DD flew only to Samarica again, this time with 4 B-25s (red '5, 7, 14 and 22') only.

Gabor

Sources: TsAMO archives, Russia and Royal Hungarian Police - enemy AC crash investigation records. Some confusion in papers with markings!

HGabor 15th February 2014 00:15

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
Folks,

Some photo-details for modellers/kit builders showing the form/design of the red tactical tail numbers of soviet 5 GvAD DD (14 GvAP DD, 22 GvAP DD and 337 AP DD) B-25 Mitchells, participating the long-range Yugoslav partisan supply-drop missions in 1944. On the far left, see list of 14 GvAP DD planes and pilots, flying the August 9/10, 1944 mission, including Fw. Eckart Ulmer's (8./NJG 6) two Mitchell victims this night over Hungary: B-25s No. '4' and '12'.

(From 14 GvAP DD mission-plan, - TsAMO archives, Russia)
Enjoy!

Gabor

GMichalski 15th February 2014 22:12

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
many thanks Gabor
kind regards

HGabor 16th February 2014 13:42

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
Folks,

This is Heinz Ewald's list for Hungary, only in 1945:

Date..........Reported AC................Time.................Real victim

02/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 12.3 ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (Few La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
02/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 12.3 ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (Several Yak losses in the South in the Tata-Bicske area.)
03/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 09.00~ ................ Good question. One La-5F was hit by flak around 9:00 over Esztergom and crashlanded at Fót-S en route home, due to quitting engine. Maybe a quick ambush from below…?
03/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 09.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged - time is wrong with few hrs.
03/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 09.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged - time is wrong with few hrs.
03/01/1945 Jak-3 .................... 14.00~ ................ Yak-3, S/N: 1817 (1829217), 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Verginskii (WIA, in hospital) / probably shared Yak-3 victory with Hungarian Bf 109 pilot Lója Géza fhdgy. 101/4. Sq. at 13:50 near Bajna. 8 Yak-3s vs. 10 Fw 190 & 12 Bf 109s.
03/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 14.00~ ................ Probably La-5F, S/N: 39214789, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, crashlanded at Tóalmás airfield-SW, ~1,5 km, after a dogfight with a Bf 109 pair in the Bajna area and broke. Pilot unhurt.
04/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 10.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged. 5 La-5 losses in Bicske-Martonvasar area, but too far in the South!
06/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................ Unsure, looks too South. Perhaps L-5FN, S/N: 39212618, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP on a mission between Esztergom-Komárom?
16/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 11.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged.
16/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 14.00~ ................ Maybe this: Yak-1B, S/N: 40171, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP at Budapest-E, between 16:45-17:55 Moscow time, crashlanded at Kartal after dogfight with Bf 109s. (5 Yak-1s.)
19/01/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 12.00~ ................ Looks a real victory, but unfortunately to many IL-2 options. Most likely IL-2, S/N: 10513, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 995 ShAP, ml.l-t Kobilyatskii crew OK.
20/01/1945 Boston .................... 16.00~ ................ A-20G-40 DO, S/N: 43-21264, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, l-t Gapanovich crew
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................... Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................... Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ Perhaps a La-5FN: S/N: 41210109, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP. (4 La-5s this day and here no time was given, so who knows? Returned to airfield after dogfight and broke. 4 La-5 & 5 IL-2 vs. 6 Bf 109s)
30/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (3 La-5s this day with few hours difference)
02/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 15.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 17 VA, 194 IAD, 56 IAP La-5s, but only on February 3, 1945)
04/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ La-5F, S/N: 39215046, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, ml.l-t Voronov
04/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ La-5FN, S/N: 39212754, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, ml.l-t Lazarev
01/03/1945 P-51 .................... 13.00± .................... P-51D, S/N: 44-15480, 15 USAAF, 325th FG, 1Lt. Frederick J. Wulfe (O-513279, POW)
08/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 16.00± ................ No idea, found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Several IL-2s lost to AAA in area, but few hrs earlier!
11/03/1945 Jak-9 ...................... 15.00± ................. Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
13/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 10.00± ................ Looks a real 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP IL-2 victory, but not sure which one
13/03/1945 La-5 ....................... 16.00± ................. La-5F, S/N: 39215208, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Radchenko
13/03/1945 La-5 ....................... 16.00± ................. Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
14/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 13.00± ................ Looks a real victory, but to many IL-2 options
14/03/1945 Boston .................... 17.00± ................. A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-3643, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, st.l-t Pavlov
16/03/1945 Jak-3 ...................... 17.00± ................ Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, ml.l-t Korotkevich

Gabor

Nick Hector 16th February 2014 13:49

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
Gabor,

Your usual brilliance

Keep up the good work, it is high time this kind of thing saw the light of day...

Nick

GMichalski 16th February 2014 21:09

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
hi,
i only add some info of the lost P-51D:

12517 450301 P-51D-15-NA 44-15480 *ShuShu* , O-513279 325 318 1Lt. Frederick J. Wulfe POW Location, 47°N 17°55' . Point Of Departure, Lusina, Italy.*European Theatre: Hungary, Plane*numbered 59, named *ShuShu*, assigned to Norman McDonald

from:
http://raf-112-squadron.org/325thfghonor_roll.html


1,3.45 6./JG 52 Lt P-51 Raum Stuhlweißenburg, (The story is in the book "Esau" of Heinz Evald, page 114. he said that crashed near Hajmáskér, East of Veszprém) _____ _____ W N 70

info from:
Johannes and the web:
http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-729.html

in the second web they comment some info about Eduard Pitzl 1./JG53 claim but were wrong because this claim was in Karlsruhe area.... not Hungary

enjoy,
regards

Alfred26 16th February 2014 21:48

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 
Gabor,

Thanks ! Very interesting information.

You could specify in more detail Soviet losses (La-5): 02.01, 22.01 and 30.01.45 (time battle (Moscow or local), area and reason losses, fate of the pilots).

Best Regards,
Alfred


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