6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Ive been looking into the crash of this aircraft which occured on 15/16 Feb 1941.

I have some detail on the incident itself but was wondering how to research the activity of the aircraft and the service of the crew.

Hptm Heinz Styra
Ofw. Wilhelm Beetz,
Uffz Karl Brutzen,
Uffz Helmut Jeckstadt,
Gefr. Franz-Friedrich Janeschitz,

i also dont know where the crew were buried, all were killed.

Im knew to researching German aircraft so any help will be appreciated.

cheers

neil

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Hi, Neil...

I was just browsing through some earlier postings and noticed you hadn't had any responses to this.

The undernoted information is from the colourfully named South Shields Sanddancers site, which is seemingly a forum for local news and information relating to that area of the country:

http://forum.southshields-sanddancer...t=1797&p=29793

You can find quite a lot of information if you do Google searches, albeit you have to spend some time juggling names, details etc before you're lucky enough to get a result. I simply entered: Heinz Styra, KG4, and it led me to the site. The undernoted is from the second posting when you scroll down:

...aircrew who were lost on February 16th, 1941. The aircraft was a Heinkel He-111P-4, Wnr.3085 and coded 5J+GP. The aircraft was from II /KG 4 and was listed as was missing at February 14th, 1941. The aircraft was hit by AA fire then struck balloon cable. It then crashed at Bent's Park, South Shields. Obfw. Beetz baled out but was killed when he landed on trolley-bus wires.

The crew were -

Hptm Heinz Styra
Ofw. Wilhelm Beetz,
Uffz Karl Brutzen,
Uffz Helmut Jeckstadt,
Gefr. Franz-Friedrich Janeschitz,


All of this information is according to the German Loss List

I tried the subsequent link given on the posting, but it didn't relate to anything obviously helpful in respect of a German loss list. The aircraft code of 5J+GP narrows it down to an aircraft of 6.Staffel, II.Gruppe/KG4, which carried the title 'General Wever'. Bomber Units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945, Vol.1 by H L de Zeng and D Stankey (Midland Publishing), states that II.Gruppe/KG4 moved to Soesterberg, Holland, at the end of September/beginning of October 1940 and remained there through to late March 1941, prior to relocating to Wien-Aspern in preparation for the Balkans campaign.

Given the amount of detail relating to this crew's (and the aircraft's) demise, though, it may be that someone else on this forum would be able to oblige you as to where the machine was manufactured, and perhaps some further information about the crew. Hopefully, by way of this posting, it will prompt others to dig a little deeper for some info/photos. Happy hunting... ! :D

Regards...

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Cheers for that info, i appreciate the time and help!

Its the part of tracking down german aircraft info and personnel history that i dont have a clue about.

cheers for the pointers!

neil

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Hi, Neil...

No problem... :) If you're patient enough to wait for a while, you may be lucky enough to have someone else on this forum help you out. That's what we try to do. There are many contributors with access to many differing sources of information, so hang in there... you may be lucky.

Regards...

Paul

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Hi Neil

I replied on this query in the last week, to your post on LEMB forum. Thanks for your additional info there!

Regards

David

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Neil, I managed to lose your Email address! The members of the crew are buried in Hylton Cemetery, Castletown, Sunderland. You will find some details of the crash in my LUFTWAFFE LOSSES OVER NORTHUMBERLAND & DURHAM. (Pen & Sword Books, 2002). If you don't have a copy, you'll find one in your local library. Bill Norman (www.billnorman.co.uk)

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

In respect of personnel/career details, the NVM would have DoB, place of birth and service number (Bill Norman might have this). I guess that Doug S has no details for Styra. You used to be able to get career details from Germany but his has all but stopped due to new legislation

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

cheers david for the help, ive been scoping out both sites.

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Cheers Bill, ive got my hands on a copy and have had a good read, including the "South Bank Dornier" which i got at the weekend.

Ive tried to google as much as i could but nothing found yet on possible aircraft and personnel history. Im going to visit the library at south shields to see if they have any more pictures from the incident and see if i can take any comparison pics of what the site looks like today.

Ive also been looking into finding out the civillian casualties of that night, and maybe trying to find locals who still have memories from that night.

I did find an eye witness account on an English heritage document from a gunner from the Tynemouth side of the river stationed at the abbey.

As mentioned im used to finding out about Allied airmen in the area but not german.

thanks for getting back to me.

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Aircraft was manufactured by Heinkel Werke Rostock in May 1940 and had the Stammkennzeichen TM+WT.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Cheers for that Norbert

Stammkennzeichen TM+WT is the four letter factory code?
was this on the aircraft anywhere?

will there be documents showing which units the aircraft was used by?

sorry for the questions.

neil

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Hi, Neil...

Yes, TM+WT was the factory code. It was usually displayed on both sides of the the fuselage, and under the wings. So, on the undersurface of the right wing, most likely T+M, and under the left wing, W+T, so that it would read from left to right looking at the aircraft from the underside.

Regards...

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Bill Normans book states

Heinkel 111P-4 5J+GP w/nr.3085 6./KG4 ??????

im not sure what it all means but it seems to be coded differently.

maybe the TM+WT is for another incident on the same night perhaps?

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

When it rolled out of the factory it was coded TM+WT and when it arrived on 6/KG 4 was repainted 5J+GP

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

was that usual practice?

does that make it harder totrack down aircraft identies?

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Yes. How would Heinkel know to which unit their aircraft would be assigned thus how could they know to paint 5J+GP? Admittedly, unit codes mean you can identify Geschwader, Staffel & Gruppe whilst factory codes are harder hence attempts to create a Stammkennzeichen database

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

so abit like the painted numbers on the corsair aircraft in the factory before leaving and getting renumbered.

so the Stammkennzeichen database is a way of sorting the factory database rather then an operational database and linking the two to find its place of origin details.

i think im getting the hang of these new german titles.

thanks for the help.

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Hi, Neil...

There is a Stammkennzeichen database available to all at the undernoted link:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stammkennzeichen.html

Unfortunately, I have checked under the 'T's and your machine isn't listed, but now that you have a Werk Nr, Stammkennzeichen and unit codes and details, you could always drop them an e-mail and ask them to enter an update to the records. It's not a complete record of every Stammkennzeichen, and there are still many to match up, but your contribution would be very much appreciated, and the kind that helps to keep things up to date.

Kindest regards... :D

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

ive just been looking at that site it came up after i googled Stammkennzeichen.

i will send them an email, every bit helps!

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Good man... :D

Re: 6/KG4 Heinkel He 111P-4 (3085) - Crash 1941
 

Peter van Gogh put those details in the list.

I of course made sure it was down to you good people!

cheers everyone