Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Hello,

Someone has pointed out to me the following sources about Hurrican armament during the WC/BoB. Seems there is considerable disagreement, although they are not very significant. What is the accurate number?

A. Gillet - 2 800 rounds, i.e. 350 rpg

Francis K. Mason in his "Hurricane" monograph - 2 660 rounds, i.e. 332.5 ( ?) rpg

Len Deighton in his book "Fighter" - 300 rpg (totalling 2 400 rounds)

Jerry Scutts in his "Squadron-Signal" monograph : 334 rpg (totalling 2

Regards,

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Whatever, not enough!!

= Tim

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Larry

I will try to source the information from the relevant Hurricane I Air Publication for you. That ought to be the authoratative number!

Thanks for your PM. Will reply later.

Andy

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

The Air Publication for the Hurricane IIA (8 guns) gives 3,270 rounds. Since the IIA and the I had identical wings I think it would be reasonable to assume they ought to have had the same ammo capacity? At least, unless there was a Mod on the IIA that I don't know about. The only way I can check (in the absence of any AP for the I) is to discover the part numbers for the ammo trays on the I and the IIA respectively. (Not impossible!) If they are the same part number then I think you could surely go with 3,270 - although I appreciate this does not conform to any of the other figures quoted.

As a matter of interest (although irrelevant to your query) the IIB with twelve guns had an ammo capacity of 4,580 rounds.

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

It took me a minute, but I finally found the page I was looking for. I remembered seeing it a day or so ago, and I noted the numbers, but not the site. Anyway, according to this website (which may not be a book, but sounds reasonably accurate;), the Hurricane had:

"Four Browning 7.7 millimeter machine guns were mounted in single bay in each wing, firing outside the propeller arc. Elimination of the synchronizing gear needed for firing through a propeller arc both reduced weight and increased reliability. The guns were easily accessed for service and loading. The innermost gun in each wing had an ammunition box with a capacity of 338 rounds, while the next gun had 324 rounds, and the two outer guns 338 rounds each. Cyclic rate of fire of each gun was initially 1,100 rounds per minute, though this was later improved to 1,200 rounds per minute."

I suppose that just muddies the water a bit more, huh? But I thought that sounded a bit too specific to entirely dismiss. I have no idea where the numbers came from, but that's a total of 2,676 rounds in both wings...divided by eight guns is 334.5rpg! "3,272" rounds total sounds wrong to me...that's 408.75rpg. I think that the SPITFIRE had about 400rpg, but don't quote me on that...I may be imagining things.
Also, the cutaway Hurricane Mk I in one of my books states "outboard ammunition magazines, 338 rounds each" and "inboard ammunition magazines, 324 and 338 rounds", so that also agrees (to my surprise!). The website I got the numbers off of was:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avhurr.html
LOL, it always mildly amuses (and irritates) me when you find some little, seemingly easy-to-answer question like this, and no-one seems to have any definite answer! I have a lot of those; I'm always into the details.
I wonder whether the rated capacity for a magazine depends on how you measure it...perhaps some people only count the rounds that will actually fit into the box, and others count that plus the ammo in the belt leading from the box to the gun? That' possible. I don't remember the actual numbers, but the A-10 Thunderbolt's ammo drum holds a certain number of shells, but if you load the drum and the belt leading to the gun, it adds a dozen or so to the total. Kind of like loading a gun, chambering a round, and "topping it off", i.e. a shotgun with a 4-shot magazine actually holds 5, if you chamber a shell and replace it in the magazine. You'd say that shotgun had a capacity of "4+1".
I wonder what the reason for the lesser capacity of the second gun is? Something must be occupying the space that magazine should fill, so they had to cut it down a bit. The landing gear pivot was in about that location, I think. Maybe that's what takes up the space and reduces the #2 gun to only 324 rounds (if that is indeed the correct number).
And does anyone know whether there was really a change in the size of the magazines in the Mk I vs the Mk II? It would be possible, but I don't see why they should alter the magazines any. I suppose it might help explain all the different claims for ammunition capacity. I suppose it's even possible that there are a number of different magazines used, installed at different times during the production run.
I don't know why that should be the case, but things like that did happen...just because two planes are nominally the same type, doesn't make all their parts identical. We're talking pretty big production runs here, all under the pressures and urgency of war-time, so they may not have minded using whatever part was available, as long as it was roughly equivalent.
The Russians were notorious for that sort of approach to building planes (and never had cause to regret it, either). They were so hard-to-the-wall, in the midst of moving the whole industry over the Urals, that the design evolution of the planes seemed to go linearly, a plane at a time, rather than in stages. Okay, that's exaggeration! But there were so many workers and factories and small design changes introduced "on the line" that with planes like the Il-2, no two consecutive (or non-consecutive) planes were exactly alike.
Okay, I'm getting off track here. We're talking about the Hurricane, not Russian planes. I shall be looking into this a bit more soon, I hope.

Cheers, everyone!
Johnny .45:piliot:

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Hello,

Thanks for all your comments so far. I expected the answer to this to be quick and easy, but apparently it turns out not to be. One of our experts on the Hurricane should know for sure the definitive answer to this for the Hurricane I.

Regards,

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Hi Larry
Interestingly my copy of AP1564B (for the Hurricane IIA and IIB) has this to say:
-----------------------------
7. The maximum normal capacities of the magazines are as follows:-
No. 1 338 rounds
No. 2 324 rounds
No. 3 338 rounds
No. 4 338 rounds
No. 5 328 rounds
No. 6 328 rounds
Some aeroplanes have magazines of increased capacity for Nos 1-4 guns, as follows:-
No. 1 370 rounds
No. 2 490 rounds
No. 3 380 rounds
No. 4 395 rounds

----------------
This gives a max capacity of 2676 rounds for an 8-gun aircraft with the standard magazines (3988 rounds for a 12 gun aircraft) or 3270 rounds for an 8-gun aircraft with the increased capacity magazines.
Note that this applies to Hurricane IIA which, as Andy has noted, had nominally the same wing as the Hurricane I, but I’ve no idea whether or not Mod 202, “Ammo. Boxes, capacity increased” was applicable to the Mark I or just the IIA.
HTH
Niall

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Niall

Interesting to note reference for the Mod. to increase ammo box capacity.

Although I have no evidence either way, I do wonder if that was a mod applicable for the IIA. Presumably we dont know the effective date of the mod, Niall?

One has to suspect that the increased capacity was all part of "upgrading" the Hurricane to the IIA spec, in which case the 3270 round capacity may well be incorrect for 1940 - notwithstanding what were essentially identical wings between the I and the IIA.

Also, the capacities noted for boxes 1 through 6 are clearly for the IIB and yet the capacities there for 1 through 4 are less than those noted 1 through 4 for the "increased capacity" boxes. (Incidentally, it isn't clear to me whether the increased capacities of guns 1 through 4 was applicable to just the eight-gun IIA or whether the first four guns in each wing of the 12 gun fighter might also have had increased capacities?)

Logic might (and I stress might!!) therefore dictate that the capacities for 1 through 4 on the 12 gun fighter may well be the same as per the Hurricane 1 of 1940.

Who would have thought that establishing the number of rounds carried by Hurricanes in 1940 could be hard!

Where are all the Hurricane experts when you need one?

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

Andy,

My sentiments exactly.

Regards,

Re: Hurricane armament during the FC of 1940 & BoB
 

So magazines "1-6" would be for a 12-gun fighter? Does that mean that an 8-gun plane would only have 1-4? And which magazine goes to which number? No. 1 would be the innermost gun, and No.6 the outermost, right?

Do you think that they always loaded the magazines to full capacity? That would entail exactly counting the rounds, and making up belts of 338, 328, and 324 rounds, and then keeping them separate. Even if that was a worthwhile effort at times, how about during the frantic turn-arounds during the Battle...maybe it'd be quicker to just grab three 100-round belts, link them together, and toss them in each magazine? Just an idea.