spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

Hope someone might be able to help?

I’m trying to narrow down which Spitfire and Hurricane squadron(s) were on patrol over Ostend between 18:00 and 19.30 hours on Saturday May 18 1940.

My reason for making this enquiry is I now have three accounts (via diaries) of both types of aircraft firing upon two Blenheims’ of 235 Squadron PO. Robinson and Sgt. Bessy.

I appreciate that Robinson was shot down by a French fighter at 19.30, but also realize that it may not be possible to pin point which RAF fighter squadrons were in the area too.

Thank you in advance.

Best Wishes

Andy Bird

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

235 Squadron, Bircham Newton Shipping protection Ostend

Blenheim IV L9395. Shot down by S/Lt Jacquemet, Adj Marchais, and Sgt Dietrich of GC II/8 and crashed in the sea off Nieuport 7.10 p.m. P/O C. S. Robinson, Sgt D. V. Moseley, and LAC A. E. Waddington missing. Aircraft lost.
Yet another tragic accident, despite the efforts of Adj Henri Mir of GC II/8 who recognised the aircraft as a Blenheim and tried to alert attacking pilots who took it for an He111. Some accounts suggest that it was also attacked by an RAF Hurricane but no corresponding claim has been traced.

Source: The Battle of France Then & Now

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

M. Cornwell,

You named the French pilots responsible of this friendly fire! Have you any evidence that those pilots were over Ostend at 7.10 p.m. because I never found anything like this in the French archive.

This unit was not over Ostend at that time according to the French archive. In my book, “Les Victoires de l’aviation de chasse française” I found this only one testimony from Adj Mir that you mention. Is he right or wrong by writing 7.10 p.m. instead of 2.10 p.m. because this unit was only over Ostend at 2.00 -2.30 p.m. and claimed indeed a He111 but at 2.00 p.m.?

Actually Adj Mir didn’t mention those French pilots or any Bloch 152 attacking this Blenheim too. No! He saw Curtiss attacking a Blenheim! The Royal Air Force wrote that this aircraft was shot down by Hurricane or Spitfire!

In my book “Les Victoires de l’aviation de chasse française”, I never write that those pilots shot down that Blenheim and didn't write also if it is e french or British friendly fire...

What you wrote is a bit cavalier...

So the question reminded intact: is there any Curtiss, Hurricane, Spitfire over Ostend at 7.10 p.m.?

I added one more:
Is there a possibility that this Blenheim was over Ostend at another time as the one given by the R.A.F. archive to avoid any implication of British pilots? French or British friendly fire, this is the question?

Let’s hope someone will give us some useful information…

Regards

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

To make matters more complicated: in Cynrik De Decker's book "Vleugels boven het Meetjesland", about the history of Ursel, Maldegem and Aalter airfields in Belgium, there's a story of happenings on 17 May 1940, so curiously one day off.
It mentions that Blochs of II/8 were active from Maldegem airfield and were on patrol from 14.30 till 19.30 hrs in the Ostend-Bruges sector.
Lt.Mir had a mission from 18.15-19.15 hrs in said sector and reports that he encountered three Curtiss fighters of I/4. Three Blenheim bombers were flying north, and one of them was attacked by a Curtiss despite desperate warnings from Lt. Mir. He reports that the crash "takes place 1 km. off the Nieuport sea dike and it is exactly 19.10 hrs. "
The unfortunate Curtiss pilot reportedly was Lt Stiquel, who was shot down himself and killed on 26 May 1940 SW of Douai, according to Battle of France, then and now.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

Leendert,

Those Curtiss pilots shot at British aircraft indeed. There are many documents in French archive dealing with this problem. That was quite ambarrassing for French Air Force. People has tried to avoid this problem...

I have for the Lt Stiquel's claim 5.25 a.m. So the three Blenheim would be those survivors of Sqn 82 massacred in France and Belgium...

Your time 18.15 19.15 is interesting but it would be interesting to know where this information come from...

Regards

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

This is one of those eternal puzzles.
What I have as facts:

• On May 18 the Blenheim L9395 of No 235 Sqn was lost on a patrol along the coast.
• On May 18 at 6.45 p.m. Hurricanes of both No 111 and No 17 squadrons leave Lille-Marcq to fly back to the UK (Nordholt and Hawkinge, respectively), landing around 8.00 p.m. No 111 claims having attacked and shot down one Do17 on the way, although this is usually interpreted as a Do17P of 4(F)/11 that crashed into the ground near Ypres.

Then the less factual stuff:

• The eye witness account of A/C Mir of GC II/8 is in all sources I know off listed under May 17. However, on that day there are no reported losses of Blenheims over Ostend. Only Arnaud Gillet in Victoires de la Chasse Francaise 2 gives the date as May 18. I can not prove which of the two dates is correct according the official sources.
• On May 17, however, I have no reported losses of Blenheims around 7.00 p.m. in this area. In fact no Blenheim activities at all along the Belgian coast. (Is this correct?).
• On May 18 the 235 Sqn Blenheim was lost, but timing is not clear to me. It is always mentioned as 7.10 p.m., but this is as far as I can see probably based on the story of A/C Mir. What was the flight time of the patrol according the ORB? A/C Mir talks about three Blemheims coming out of the clouds; should be easy to verify this patrol in the ORB to get confirmation of the aproximate time of the action.
• Idem on flight times of GC I/4 patrols during the afternoon of May 18.

All in all it is tempting to combine this all into the combined action on May 18 (Blenheim of 235 Sqn shot down by Hawk of GC I/4, being witnessed by Bloch of GC II/8), but I don't see hard proof, and it seems dates and/or times have to be manipulated to make it fit.
It might be, but then some independent proof of the different flight times of the three units presumably involved would help.

Regards, Pieter

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

Pieter,

I have now the document from French air Force archive in front of me. The translation is :

"Friendly fire of May 17th. Testimony of Lt Mir...
May 18th.
Cover mission Ostend - Bruges from 18.15 to 19.15... (1 page)..."

Observations:
1. This mission described by Lt Mir would happen on May 18 during the mission from 18.15 - 19.15... (4 pages)."

But it seems dates and/or times have to be manipulated. It is also possible that this mission over Ostend that May 18th late afternoon have been erased. But I don't have any evidence and can't say anything about that Blenheim of No. 235 Squadron.

French or British friendly fire? I can't say anything as archives have been obviously manipulated as documents are in contradiction.

Regards

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

It is extremely difficult, I know

The diary reads:

Take off 17.50 hours.

Whilst on an escort near Ostend. They Laughlin, Robinson, Sgt Bessey are attacked by Hurricanes and Spitfires, presumably our own, the former actually opening fire, but no casualties are reported.

Although the three airmen are on 'A' Flight - Flt/Lt George Manwaring commander of 'B' Flight wrote 'shortly after their arrival off Ostende Robinson was noticed as missing.'

'Sam' McHardys diary although very informative unfortunately doesn't mention this - as he was down a pub in Kings Lynn with 'Penny' by 18:00.

Am awaiting the Canadian info from Ottawa on Robinson.

Kind Regards

Andy Bird

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

Andy,

My original response to your enquiry was merely to indicate that I too have been unable to substantiate the claim that RAF fighters were involved in this unfortunate episode.

Arnaud,

Sorry that you find my interpretation of events 'cavalier' which is fair comment but doesn't (yet) make it wrong. When faced with conflicting facts I will invariably adopt the simplest conclusion.

Re: spitfire and Hurricane sqdns over Ostend 18.05.40
 

Yes
but I still don't thing those French guys shot down that Blenheim...