Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hi all,

Having seen the photo of the tail of Bf109E 2023 on the recent ebay auction and which was sold on Friday for 262 Euros!, I thought I would ask whether any more background information is available on 2023 since it was reported in 1999 following recovery.

I have it down as an Erla Built machine built in 1940.

So possible additional information that might now be known.

What was the production block in which 2023 was manufactured.
Built as - E1 or E3?
A more accurate hand over date than 1940.
Stammkennzeichen?

Unfortunately did not win the photo but shows how just a single photo can suddenly double the amount of information/history on an airframe.

Before that photo, we know 2023 was lost with JG5 in 1942 but of course nothing from 1940. All owners seem to want the Battle of Britain history for obvious reasons.

Have been asked to do the same for 3523 - so would love to see a photo of this airframe! Nothing else has come up.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

:confused:

Know the link - that is what prompted me. Does not answer any of the questions though!

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

1980 to 2063. I have no year.
E-4 and E-4/Bs
No Stkz known though 2012 is TH+CL (LEMB Stkz data)
Bert Hartmann is giving TH+CA to TH+CF and TH+CL no WNr. given. and only TH+CL as E-4 others E only without subtype indication.
Enough?
I Forgot:
http://www.stammkennzeichen.de/
and
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stammkennzeichen.html
very useful links! :D

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Dead end?

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Franck,

Not really - whole new history to add/write about.

There is no other damage listings for 2023. Overhauled and upgraded. Off to JG5.

Will ask Finnish friend if there is any listings for TH+C flying through Finnish airspace in 42.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Thanks to Kari, we have TH+CX flying through Finnish airspace in April 1942 so this is likely to be 2023.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Ah!
If TH+CL is 2012 as pretended here http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stam-t.html
and
if the serie is complete then 2023 must be TH+CW not TH+CX; then 2024.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Franck

Understand that but cannot be 2024.

29th Oct 1940
Recovered from the crashsite of BF109E-4 werk No 2024 that was shot down by Sgt Burgess of 222 squadron and crashed at Sheerlands Farm, Pluckley, Kent.
The aircraft 2024 was Bf 109 E-4/B, 'Yellow 6' flown by the Staffelkapitan of 3./Erprobungsgruppe 210, Oberleutnant Otto Hintze

The Finnish records are very good for recording W.Nr or Skz movements and TH+CX fits the time line as well.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Ah,

if so what's the StKz for 2024?
Because if I understand you well you just resume years of reseaches in three posts.
Were are these remarquable finnish records no one dare to use until today to complete their lists?

Don't worry I'm not one of these researchers, it's just a question of curiosity. I suppose, too, there is no mistake at all in the said records ...

Tschüss, Franck.

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Franck

All I can say is that Skz blocks were not always complete A-Z. there were often breaks and missing letters for one reason or another.

There are typo or sounding errors in the records of course as well.

The Finnish records are there. It help with the movements of Bf109E-7 3579, Bf109 3523 and Fw189 2100 through Finland. All were lost in the North and subsequently recovered.

Here is another thread relating to movements to the north - both recorded by tactical number, W.Nr or Skz.

Kari had access to the archives and has been extremely helpful over the years.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=16019

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

I have one other loss for this machine, though it's listed as a 109B. Could be a typo in the losses?

Bf 109B, 2023, n.n., , , , Jagdfl.Sch. 4, , , , , 26-Mar-42, Taxiing accident., , Lfl.3/Deutschland, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/772, Flzg.Unfälle bei Schulen und usw., p.88; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/782, Flzg.Unfälle bei Schulen und usw., p.146, , Fl.Pl. Fürth, 25%, H, , ,

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hi Jim

Think it must be a typo.

TH+CX (2023?) recorded at Pori on 24th April 1942, just a month later.

Can't see 2023 being transported to factory/repaired/signed off and flown to Pori after 25% damage and only one month though perhaps I am wrong.

I am assuming it would require a factory repair.
25% to me feels more than 1 month in a factory.

It is within our time zone. Wonder what 2023 was doing in 1941.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hello Mark,
I do notice with pleasure that you put a question Mark after the StKz.

What surprise me in Jim comments is not the fact that the plane did flew a month later after this accident. In loss records we can find a lot of such situations; even less than a week. No...
What do surprise me that apparently the plane was used in JFS 4 before sent back to an operational unit. I thought that JFS units were the place where most of them did end their "life". But why not?
And normally after 25% damage in an operational unit the planes were sent FROM operational unit TO a JFS not the contrary. Well, at least when material was available :).

Hence...
Concerning the typo:
1/ The typo does concern the WNr. not the type.
or
2/ Another situation like the one we talked about here http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=28279 ?

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Franck

The question mark was that the Finnish records recorded the flight as TH+CX and not by W.Nr.

A month later W.Nr2023 was recorded in the loss reports as Black 9 with 8./JG5. (but not the Stkz).

To me a very good tie in.

Bf109E 3523 was recorded in the Finnish logs by W.Nr indicating it was not carrying Stkz. It replaced a Rot 6 of 5./JG5 lost a couple of days before. It was lost a month later as well. We also had a log book entry.

PM me your email and I'll send you the text). The owners want the Battle of Britian history on 3523 so hopefully another photo will come up in the next ten yers :-)

There are documents relating to repiars so would be interesting if a 25% damage listing would take 3 weeks to repair - doubt it.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

I don't think a month turn around for a 25% loss is that unusual, especially given that the incident occurred at a major base in Germany, which would likely have the facilities to do some major repair work, not to mention being close to material sources. It also would depend on what was damaged. A wing(s) or tail unit could be swapped out pretty quickly I would guess. I suspect I could find quite a number of these situations in my db if I was inclined to look. To me the bigger mystery would be why was it re-assigned to another unit? A 25% loss, more times than not, would stay with the original unit. Was it sent to a depot for repair and then re-assigned or? The fun continues!!

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Jim

Only thing I can add is that JG5 seemed to be receiving all of the repaired and hand me down Emils during this period as the other units began equipping with the newer F's and G models.

1407 came from Norway with JG77 to and went to 14./JG77 in Finland
3523 had previous history but unit unknown before it went to 5./JG5
3579 went to LG2, repaired and then upto 13./JG77 and then 4./JG5
8993 (F model) was with JG54 and then went to 6./JG5
I am sure there were others if we researched.

As for the damage, I was thinking the same. Taxying so no belly damage so from a wheels up landing. One wing may well have come upder 25% so it is still possible the listing is correct but not the model (though a B could be read as an E).

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Mark,

The model is definitely the problem, but then again the loss reports are full of this sort of typos. The type in this case was definitely reported as 109B - I went through both document sets (BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/772, Flzg.Unfälle bei Schulen und usw.; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/782, Flzg.Unfälle bei Schulen und usw.). They are essentially the same, but in many cases one might be more legible than the other, and there were different handwritten comments on either set - so if the typo was mine I'm completely blind!!

There were units that also seemed to get all the 'hand me downs' other than JG 5. JG 51 flew the Bf 109F-2 well into mid-summer 1942, when other units had gone to the F-4 and early Gs. I think in that case, the plan had been to convert the whole unit to the 190, but, for whatever reason, that didn't happen. Problems in development, the increasing threat along the Channel/North Sea coast, slower than expected production?

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Jim

Was not referring to the typo being yours, more the official document from the original return.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hi.

Until now I have recorded 16 distinct aircraft that went through the repairworks at Erla VII and ended up in JG 5.

There are more, I just haven't had the time to link up all of them from the original records yet.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Interestingly have 2009, 2012, 2018 and 2023 lost in the North with JG5.

Kari only looked at March to Sept 1942 (off the top of my head)

TH+CX was the only recorded Stkz (2023).

Others were either in the North or flew up through Finland recorded by W.Nr or tactical number.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hi, Mark

What is your reference on 2012?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hi Andreas

My mistake, thought it was on the Norwegian loss list site but not. Think I wrote 2012 as a reference for the other numbers but forgot to delete.

regards

Mark

Re: Bf109E W.Nr2023
 

Hi,

No problem. I have two records for but not in the north, so just wondering.

Regards,
Andreas B