ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hello,

Can anyone help ID this one? Jochen Prien has suggested an incident in October 1940 near Cap Gris Nez: Bf109E-4 with the WNr. 2794, but by then it should have had a yellow nose, and this one clearly doesn't. More likely an August, 1940, incident, in my opinion.

Who can help?

http://www.ebay.de/itm/260939479944?...#ht_731wt_1011

Regards,

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hi Larry,

Our friend Ouidjat told two days ago on this forum that it is not Cap Gris or in this aera but Querqueville close to Cherbourg.

It is also my opinion because this print does not look like very much with Cap gris nez or blanc nez. Also same seller sold another print with a large hangar very common with the Querqueville aéronavale air base.

HTH


Bertrand

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Bertrand,

Thanx for pointing this out. Does this indicate a possible date and pilot for this incident?

Regards,

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hi Larry

I may be barking up the wrong tree (or just barking:)) but could this have been a later incident, with the white 16 on the fuselage I wondered if this was a machine from Ergänzungsjagdgruppe Sud rather than 8./JG27?

Chris

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Larry,

you are of course right that the lack of a yellow engine cowling should have alerted me, saying that this shot was taken before September 1940.

Taking a closer look at the a/c it does not only lack yellow recognition markings but also a head armour in the cockpit canopy, another hint that the photo was taken rather early in the BoB.

With that in mind and also with the relatively few recorded losses of 8./JG 27 in the early days of the BoB this makes Oblt. von Kageneck, who had to f/l on July 19th, 1940, after battle damage sustained in an aerial combat over the Isle of Wight, a very likely candidate. The damage to the a/c was reported as 35%, the location of the f/l is not known, but with III./JG 27 operating from Cherbourg during these days it would also match with the comments on the possible location.

BTW - there is no no. 16 on the fuselage - what we see are the remains of the Stammkennzeichen which look like "JG".

Any comments are welcome

Jochen Prien

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Folks, may I enter here for a moment to say that the photo of the sw. 13 + is indeed challenging. I for one would surely like to see the incident cleared up.

Jochen Prien's keen eye and well-informed judgment seem to have provided the best answer so far, except—the aircraft in the photo is an E-1, whereas the loss entry for Ltn. Graf von Kageneck, 19.07.40, in Prien, et al., Dt. JFlg.Verbände, 4/I, p. 422, states a Bf 109E-4.

Guys, can we overcome this inconsistency?

RA

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Rabe,

It has the heavier canopy of the E-4.

Is that definitely the MG17's port hole or could the MG/FF's have been removed - albeit difficult!

regards

Mark

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Grüß Gott Mark!

It is unclear what you mean by a "heavier" canopy as a characteristic of the Bf 109E-4. I assume that you mean the square- or flat-top component. If so, I know of no link between round- or flat-top canopies and individual Bf 109E subtypes. The Bf 109E design and production ab initio featured the round-top type that we know well. It continued to be installed on production lines until approximately the end of 1939. At some point around the end of 1939 or early in 1940, Bf 109E production of all subtypes (E-1, E-3, and later the E-4 and E-7) went over to the flat-top canopy of the type shown on "our" photograph of the sw. 13 + . There is photographic evidence of this transition for WNF Bf 109E-3s, at least, in Haberfellner's photo history of the Austrian plant. Moreover, beginning sometime in 1940, older round-top canopies also sometimes were replaced during repair or overhaul. I don't know the parameters for, or extent of, such post-assembly replacement: it was extensive but never seems to have reached 100 percent.

I don't wish to be dogmatic, but the "armament hole" in the leading edge of the sw. 13 + appears to me to be above the leading edge centerline, in other words, it seems to be consistent with E-1 wing machineguns rather than 20mm cannon. The passage hole through the leading edge for the cannon barrels of E-3s and E-4s, as we know, lay on on the centerline of the leading edge, that is, slightly lower down on the rounded front of the airfoil.

RA

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hi Rabe,

Sorry, was under the impression the square topped heavier canopy was introduced on the E-4 model but assume they were retrofitted/fitted to other models by this period.

As for the guns - sure you are right.

Besides that, cannot really add to location and loss.

regards

Mark

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

To add that between the E-3 nd E-4 the difference is so tiny...

Rémi

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hallo M. Rémi!

En effet, Rémi, je ne sais point aucun differences visibles entre les Bf 109E-3s et les E-4s. Tell us, please, what these "tiny" differences are, if you will, because it would make life a lot easier in Emil identification! :-)

RA

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

The tiny difference is the type of weapon, MG-FF E-3 MG-FF M for the E-4, quite tiny is'nt it ??

Rémi

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Oui, oui, Rémi, but can one SEE the difference in the two types of cannon? I thought the only difference was in the cartridge chamber and type of ammunition used. . . .

RA

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hi There,

And I don't see any Fairinggs under wings indicating 20 mm canon instalation. Even if it's not that clear.
Could be an E-8 too as I said elsewhere.

Cheers, Franck.

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

Hi all,

In Prien's JFV Teil4.I, page 422 one loss is described as follow:
3/8/1940; I./JG27(sic)*; Motorschaden, Unfall, Cherbourg 25%; Bf109E-1.

* Sure it's not I./JG27 but I./JG1 since our dear Doktor friend writes ""Aus unbekannten Gründen meldete die Gruppe jedoch noch bis Mitte September 1940 ihre Verluste unter der alten Verbandsbezeichnung als I./JG 1".
Though we can always ask why some are indicated I./JG1 (typo I./JG27) and other III./JG27 during the same time laps.
...
Most important being Cherbourg - Querqueville IS Cherbourg - and E-1. We can always comment the 25% Bruch rate.

Another important point is the ??+JG, partial Stkz.
As far "we" have look for only one Bf109E-4, KB+JG, is available; being noted in 1./Erg.JG2 during September 1941 ... After repairs? Erg. unit being the life ending destination for damaged machines but, in the mean time, the given date is too late to be helpful since Friedrichs have been put already in service times away.
Another point is we don't know WNr. of KB+JG being an E-4 during September 1941, doesn't mean it was an E-4 in July/August 1940.
....
Last, though not given in III./JG27 strength list it is interesting to note that at least four E-8s have been in use with this unit: two in 49xx, VA+Qx batch and two in 63xx batch.
And this Schwarze 13 is typically a Fieseler build E-8 in 63xx batch.

Cheers,
Franck.

Re: ID of B13+ of 8./JG27 FL on French Beach @ 8.40
 

another word.
from January 2012 eBay auction. "Scwharze 13" front view where we can note only two blades are slightly bended ... indicating the engine was already stopped before the landing... Motorschaden.