Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Hello all,

In reading Horrido! by Trevor and Constable I came across an incredible story about Gerd Barkhorn shooting up a Russian fighter and instead of finishing it off, he flew alongside it and gestured for the pilot to bailout, which he did.

On the ground Eric Hartmann asked him why he did it and Barkhorn explained: "Bubi, you must remember that one day that Russian pilot was the baby son of a beautiful Russian girl. He has his right to life and love the same as we do.”

Has anyone ever heard any more details about this encounter? When it took place? Where? Hartmann's version of the story?

Thanks!
Bryan

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Hi Bryan

This is the book that explains in great detail Hartmann's combat's, victories and him bailing-out in combat with Mustang's, that never happened.................there is a fair chance it's just not true!

Regards

Johannes

P.S don't know if these two even flew together, I'll ask Bernd Barbas about it.

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Barkhorn used to finish belly-landed planes on the ground. I don't think he showed some mercy towards those in the air.

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Nikita, if that is true, it would fit into a picture of a "real warrior" who fights until total victory. Somewhere I read that Barkhorn had an astonishingly bad eyesight for a fighter pilot. But once his wingman showed him the enemy, he almost always "bit into the enemy (like a predator), until he went down" (translation of "sich in den Gegener verbeißen, bis er fällt"). Additionally, it also fits with the extremely high number of combat missions which Barkhorn flew - THE workaholic in JG52...

PS: "if that is true,..." does not mean that I have any reason to doubt in your statement :).

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Hi, Joerg,

The majority of German aces tried to finish off the plane on the ground, if there was an opportunity to do so. Little of them shot the hanging parachutes. I have several cases with no clear indication who particularly did this.
As regards to Barkhorn, maybe he was so sentimental, however, I'am doubtful of this. If Mr. Barbas has the exact date when it happened I can point out Soviet pilot, who was "saved".

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

mmmmmm...but people change...

The camaraderie of the German Pilots was higher than any other air force. For most of the aces, htey were simply aircraft pilots first and foremost.

Having met quite a few of them, situations like that noted above were more common than you think.

Franz Stigler was an amazing man, and joined the war as an instructor. He switch to a fighter pilot to avenge his brother's death...but then saved a B-17 crew later in the war...and subsequently stopped placing victory marks on his tail. He realized that were are human beings...doing inhumane things to each other...and it needed to stop.

German pilot's would also try to count parachutes after downing a bomber to make sure everyone got out okay.

There are also numerous stories (factual), of captured US and British pilots who they would sit with and share combat stories with.

Finnish pilots were also similar.

I am fairly sure these type of situations were much more common with the long-timers, as opposed to the last ditch efforts of the newbies.

Mike

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Pilots counting parachutes had a practical action, not so much for humanitarian concern (although there may have been that element too). In a pilots 'after action' report the number of parachutes, and the region, would be passed on to the local Heer command; so that the Army would know where and how many fliers they would be looking for to round up.

It was a common practice too by the RAF in the Battle of Britain.

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

I've been reading "Red Star Airacobra" by Evgeniy Mariinskiy. Barkhorn "might not" have been after the pilot on destroying the shot down aircraft but destroying it was sound. In the book Ml.Lt. Viktor Grigorevich Korolev was shot down on the 20Oct43 and forced landed his Airacobra. The mechanics recovered it that night and started repairing it to put it back in the air. Erich Hartmann was in the air in those battles that day. If the plane wasn't destroyed it didn't show up on the 129 GIAP losses as destroyed.

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Heard stories of B-24 crews bailing out just at the sight of a Me 109 pulling up behind them. I have had a couple Luftwaffe friends tell me that also.

Likely straglers or crippled B-24s in some way. The 109 pilots could have finished, but decided not too.

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

I read in Shore's 'Fighters over the Desert' about a JG-27 "experte" who flew during the campaign in the Western Desert (sorry I forgot his name...) who always strafed aircraft that 'bellied in' until they burned or were 'unsalvageable'---he did allow the pilot to get out first, however; in the end he got caught by surprise at low altitude while strafing one such wreck & was shot down & killed.

Well now...I found my old post on this same case; the Pilot was Otto Schulz;

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=14295

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Funny when WW2" crops up-(WHAT DO I HEAR-NAZI) in WW1 tiger jones did say he shot parachutes.in my opinion he was intitled too.
but that he never made a habit out of it...
''GET A LIFE!!

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

IIRCone condition of accepted kill in LW was that the enemy plane was destroyed. There was a sound military logic behind that if the plane bellylanded onto its own side. IMHO morally there was a difference if the strafer wanted to kill also the pilot/crew or not. But after all it was a war and the killing of able-body enemy soldier who had not surrendered was legal.

Juha

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Actually, the Law of Armed Conflict states that it is illegal to shoot at anyone who does not have the ability to defend themselves/shoot back (so not legal if he is simply able-body).

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Hello
I’m not a lawyer but had based my opinion on two cases, one was the decision of the German war-crime investigation bureau, which decided after complains by some KM sailors that RN acted lawfully, when one RN DD opened fire with a pom-pom against them during Narvik battles in 1940 after survivors from a sunk German DD had reached land. According to the German investigators it would have been illegal to fire the German sailors while they were swimming or on a life boat but at the moment they reached firm land under control of Germans they became lawful targets to 40mm automatic canon.

Second case was the famous/infamous case when a US Army lawyer decided that a Apache attack helo could kill a couple insurgents that tried to surrender because of the helo could not take prisoners. IIRC the decision was seen as controversial, but if an army lawyer can make that kind of decision IMHO it wouls have been difficult to punish a pilot who shot an enemy pilot running away his crash landed plane, especially because LW and USAAF pilots had usually a side arm, IIRC Commonwealth pilots usually didn’t carry side arm.

Juha

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Paratroopers are 'legal' targets. They carry weapons but have no way of defending themselves while parachuting to earth.

Re: Moving Barkhorn story . . .
 

Hello Oberst
an excellent point, German paras, they belonged to LW, jumped armed only with pistols up to and incl Crete, their rifles etc. were dropped same time in arms canisters, but all sides saw them as legitime targets all the way down and on ground even before they reached their arms canisters.

Juha