Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

Welcome to TOCH.

Option 1: hitting the archives (liable to prove dangerously addictive) …

Are you within reach of the Imperial War Museum? If so, get in touch with them ask to see the Luftwaffe Quartermaster's loss reports for September/October 1943, which are on microfilm.

Option 2: Someone here will almost certainly have some potential answers (claims and losses don't always tie up neatly).

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

Hi Nick,

Thank you for your prompt reply, never thought of the IWM, I thought I may have to employ a German researcher?
Also you may have realised I am a Forum Virgo as well... should this have been posted on NEW POST and not NEW THREAD? anyway thank you for your help and understanding.

Kindest Regards,
Graham.

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

These records were microfilmed after they were captured by the British, then returned to Germany in the 60s. So they have the original books, we have the filmed copy.

A new thread was fine in this case. There have been past threads about Salerno but (from memory) these concerned Do 217s and He 177s.

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

8 Sep 43 there are two possible losses:
1943-09-08, 6./KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 142551, 4D+IP, (Neapel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uttz Krajnik, Karl, +
Kampfbeobachter Gefr Lindenmeier, Karl, +
Bordfunker Gefr Schneider, Horst, +
Bordschütze Ogfr Rabaschautzke, Franz, +
1943-09-08, 8./KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 300212, 4D+DS, Golf von Salerno, Vermutlich Nachtjägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Olt Piech, Alfred, vermißt
Kampfeobachter Ofw Giese, Paul, vermißt
Bordfunker Fw Rafalski, Josef, verletzt
Bordschütze Fw Janssen, Alfons, vermißt
Bordfunker mit Fallschirm abgesprungen.

10 Sep 43 there are no known Me 210 loss in Italy.

23 Oct 43 there are several possibilities:
1943-10-23, 1./KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 550052, 4D+HH, (Neapel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Komoll, Robert, vermißt
Beobachter Ogfr Schelling, Adolf, vermißt
Bordfunker Gefr Heiliger, Johann, vermißt
Bordschütze Ogfr Klenke, Karl-Heinz, vermißt
1943-10-23, 2./KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 300372, 4D+EK, (Neapel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Neubert, Rudolf, vermißt
Beobachter Gefr Stollowsky, Theodor, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Curth, Helmut, vermißt
Bordschütze Gefr Pichler, Ernst, vermißt
1943-10-23, 4./KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 550131, 4D+DM, Bei Cap Costa, Nachtjägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Krisam, Willi, +
Kampfbeobachter Ogfr Feja, Alfons, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Magewski, Gerhard. verletzt
Bordschütze Ogfr Pietsch, Werner, verletzt
1943-10-23, Stab II/KG 54, Ju 88A-4 Trop, 800936, B3+KC, (Hafen Neapel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Major Bressel, Horst, vermißt
Beobachter Fw Rißmann, Heinz, vermißt
Bordfunker Lt Erb, Heinz, vermißt
Bordschütze Uffz Baars, Walter, vermißt
1943-10-23, 6./KG 76, Ju 88A-4, 300264, F1+GP, (Neapel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Fichtl, Franz, +
Kampfbeobachter Fw Derrer, Valentin, +
Bordfunker Uffz Damaschke, Ernst, +
Bordschütze Ogfr Held, Friedrich, +

Matti

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

Hi Guys,
In a word "WOW" you guys certainly know your stuff...again Nick thank you, I live a few hundred miles from the IWM, is it something I could do online? or do I have to visit them?

Matti,
Your information has blown me away, something to get my teeth into, about the 10 Sept no known Me 210 loss, could the pilot have mistaken it for a Me 410 for example that is why no Me 210's were recorded lost on that day? as I believe they were very much alike.

Thanks again guys,
Graham.

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

I too live a few hundred miles (well, 200) from the IWM and, unless there's been some major change, you do have to visit.

An Me 210 at night over Italy is unlikely. There weren't any in the Luftflotte 2 order of battle for 20 October but there were nine Me 410s with 2.(F)/122. That unit was engaged in daylight reconnaissance and lost no aircraft on the date in question. Misidentification at night was common, not surprisingly. I'd be inclined to look at the possibility of a Ju 88 (single fin, twin engines - the sort of basic features you might be able to make out in darkness).

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

Maybe one of these could be your "Me 210":
1943-09-10, I/KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 300187, Neapel, Nachtjägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
1943-09-10, 3./KG 30, Ju 88A-4, 550223, 4D+LL, (Golf von Salerno), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
1943-09-10, 1./KG 76, Ju 88A-4, 300225, F1+HH, (Neapel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Major Dreher, Heinz, vermißt
Kampfbeobachter Uffz Haupt, Otto, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Fricke, Robert, vermißt
Bordschütze Uffz Wiesinger, Josef, vermißt

Matti

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

Thanks again guy's for your input, I will make plans to visit the IWM, was mistaked identification that common with experienced night-fighter crews?
Just to add to the mix, I had a quick look at the 255Sqn ORB's and on the 8/9th Sept 1943 the squadron claimed....
1 x Do217
1 x He111
2 x Me210
2 x Ju88
1 x Ju88 Damaged.
On both the Ju88 claims the combat report states "no one was seen to bale out", and both were seen to crash, one into the sea the other on land, on the 2 you listed Matti on that date the second one, am I right in saying the crew were posted missing and the Radio Operator baled out?
Could this account be more akin to the "Damaged Ju88"?
But even though 2 Me 210's were claimed that night I suppose identification can be difficult at night, so in your opinions would you be more inclined to think the Me210 claims were really Ju88's.

Kindest Regards,
Graham.

Re: Operation Avalanche/Luftwaffe Losses.
 

It was quite common with day fighter crews and they didn't have darkness to contend with.