Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Sorry if this was brought up before but I wonder if really is Do 17R on following photos from ebay (coded _Q+AV?) -
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%24_57-128.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%24_57-129.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%24_57-130.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%24_57-131.JPG

regards,
Pawel

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Hi, Pawel...

From the following website - http://www.aer.ita.br/~bmattos/mundo/ww2/do17.htm, I note : "Two aircraft were built as engine test-beds under the designation Do17R, one with 950 hp (708 kW) Daimler-Benz DB 60OGs, and the other with 1,000 hp (746 kW) Daimler-Benz DB 601As."

This site - http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Do17.htm - would appear to confirm same (in German).

From the publication 'German Aircraft of the Second World War' by JR Smith & Antony Kay (Putnam), it appears the Do17R V1 was originally coded D-AEEE and the Do17R V2 coded as D-ATJU. The LEMB Stammkennzeichen database notes the latter as detailed:

D-ATJU - Do17M RV2, W.Nr2196, "used for bomb sight testing, never produced; Vkz T5+NC (looks like a Do215B)", although another source quoted there appears to suggest W.Nr 2197.

The site also suggests operational use by FFS (C) 22, so perhaps some of our other contributors here more knowledgeable than myself on training unit codes could perhaps offer the first character of the Stkz and consequently match some/all of the above details. Very interesting photos.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Pawel

Don't think I have seen a Do 17R before so I am not the man to make any firm statement here, but it certainly looks very much the way it should do!

Four Do 17M were modified as Do 17R to provide a certain agency (Hansa Luftbild) in Germany with a faster reconnaissance platform than the standard Do 17P. At more or less the same time three further aircraft were taken, one Do 17M and two Do 17Z, to produce the Do 17S. I have been led to believe that the Do 17R were equipped with the DB 600 engine and the Do 17S used the DB 601. These seven aircraft in all were no testbeds as such, they were to be used for clandestine reconnaissance missions by what later became known as Kommando Rowehl. When built they were probably the fastest thing up there, except for some racers and prototypes.

Unfortunately I have very little detailed information regarding these seven aircraft
Do 17R
WNr 2194 D-AORT
WNr 2195 D-ARZI
WNr 2196 D-ATJU
WNr 2197 D-AWIS later T5+NC w/o 11.12.1941
Do 17S
WNr 2184
WNr 2501
WNr 2502
One of these was D-ARED and another (or the same one) T5+FH which was shot down 13.1.1940

All this is secondhand information taken from various books.

I would not rely too much on the internet data you found Paul. The first site state for instance that two Do 17L were built. No idea what that was, just like I have no idea what Do 17G, Do 17H, Do 17J, Do 17N, Do 17Q or Do 17T were. That first site also have some hickups with the production figures stating ca 1200 were built of every model....

Not sure how dated the above is by now, but if someone can add/correct to all this, I would very much like to know myself.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Hi, Stig...

I hadn't scrolled far enough down on the first site to see that the Luftwaffe's production rates for these variants each totalled around 1200... they'd have won every battle with output rates like that!

Equally, I've not heard of the G, H, N, Q or T variants either, but I do have some information on the Do17J and L.

From the Manfred Griehl publication Dornier Do 17E-Z/Do 215 B (Airdoc), I note the Do17V18 and V19 carried BMW 132F radial engines and were used to flight test the engines on the Do17 airframe during late 1937 and appear to have received the designations Do17J-1 and J-2. The Do17V20 and V21 were converted to use the Bramo323 engines on the airframe and had their designations changed to Do17L-1 and L-2. These machines were used for performance validation.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Hi Paul

Yes, rather funny isn't it, with ca 1200 built of everything!:)

I admit I don't have Griehl's Airdoc book. Guess I am still waiting for a 'bigger' book about the Do 17, something like the Classic publications.
What I find strange is that they should redignate two prototypes as L-1 and L-2 respectively. These two designations are production designations, so perhaps they simply were notched up as that just in case any production would follow?

Anyway thanks for letting me know the designation really existed.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Hi
Not certain of the sub-type but the Stkz is PQ+AV. Does anybody know the Unit and the crash date? Thanks

Regards
Tom

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Hi, Tom...

Thanks for the full code. Might I ask from what source it comes?

Unfortunately, the LEMB Stammkennzeichen database does not have this particular code listed, so it doesn't have a unit against it.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Here are two known Do 17 R photos (I am not certain about the first one as it could be some MV prototype, as there are some visible engine installation differences) - (K. Kössler article in Luftafahrt International), there is also one retouched factory photo in old Nowarra book on Do 17 -

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...26/do17_12.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...26/do17_16.jpg

According to Kössler and also documet from EADS archives (Flugleistungen Do 17 R) the engines were DB 601 A. Moreover rear upper gunner position was removed from this series.

regards,
Pawel

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Pawel...

Thanks for these additional photos.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Ebay Dornier 17R photos?
 

Hi Paul

The source of the full Stkz PQ+AV is mine based on the 1st photo of the group in Post 1. The Q+AV you can see quite clearly and confirmed by the underwing shots. However, because of the distinctive curvature of the Do 17 fuselage design you can just make out the lower part of the first letter and the gap between this letter and the 2nd only leaves two possible letters of F or P. I discount F as this was only used infrequently and on a few mainly small trainers types of aircraft. This leaves P and to add to this possibilty I also have PQ+AW also on a Do 17. I do not have any Unit details for this and the source was a photo (sadly now lost due to computer failure so does anybody have a copy of a Ebay foto of Do 17 PQ+AW which had a white A, to confirm the same sub-type as the mystery Do 17?) The majority of types in the PQ+A series belonged to various Schule Units so no help here.

Regards
Tom