Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

I./JG102 reported the total loss of two and damage to another three Bf109s in aerial combat over Denmark on 18 October 1944 - in the official records I have no such encounter is mentioned.

Could anybody provide me with more Information concerning this incident ?

Many thanks in advance.

Jochen Prien

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Look here:
http://www.flensted.eu.com/g194400.shtml

Regards,
Artur

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Hello Jochen,

May I ask a question about the overall Jagdwaffe losses on the 18 and 19 of October? The records that I have seen indicate 25 KIA, 30 MIA and 90 aircraft lost over these two days over the Western front and "erweitertes Reichsgebiet". I expected the losses to have been somewhat lower, an impression gained from the published literature describing air combat on these days.

Warm regards,

Paul

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Artur, Paul,

many thanks for your Input.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

316 Sqn Polish Air Force/RAF claimed 6 or 7 Bf109s 10m NE of Aalborg at 12:05 hrs

12:05 133 Wing W/C K Rutkowski Mustang III FB360 K Bf109 0.50 Des 10m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 F/L S Karnkowski Mustang III FX865 Y Bf109 0.50 Des 10m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 F/L S Karnkowski Mustang III FX865 Y Bf109 1.00 Des 10m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 F/L Z Nentwich Mustang III FB356 N Bf109 1.00 Des 10m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 W/O A Pietrzak Mustang III HB841 A Bf109 1.00 Des 10m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 W/O A Pietrzak Mustang III HB841 A Bf109 0.50 Des 10m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 F/L J Walawski Mustang III HB855 V Bf109 1.00 Des 10 m NE of Aalborg
12:05 316 F/L J Walawski Mustang III HB855 V Bf109 1.00 Des 10 m NE of Aalborg

Regards

Martin

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Probably, you are just seeking, Jochen, for place nd allied units encountered by that unit ??
Nethertheless here Under what I traced from german side/JG 102

1 Total due to fighters

2 Totals due to 2 Bf109 colliding each other , maybe in fightings

There is also a loss of an Ar96/550405 no cause given.

Do you think that JG 102 has been used on purpose, for fighting ?? Probably not.

Rémi

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Paul,

I cannot quite follow the figures you're quoting since neither on the 18th not on the 19th were there any missions flown by the day fighters of Lfl. Reich, whereas Lw.-Kdo. West mustered 64 sorties on the 19th, all without aerial combat. Therefore on these two days no combat losses were reported at all.

KR

Jochen Prien

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Rémi,

certainly not, they were "peacefully" performing their training flights. And it wouldn't have been very wise to put up Ar 96s as air defence anyway.

FhjObfw. Haugk was reported lost while leading a Schwarm on a training sortie.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

Best

Jochen

Re: Loss of 5 Bf 109s on 18 October 1944
 

Hello Jochen,

Thank you for replying to what must have appeared a very strange message from me, given the information that you just provided! Clearly, I should have carefully refreshed my memory of Chris Shores' 2 TAF book and Don Caldwell's work before assuming that archival data is the sole truth.

Appearances notwithstanding, I have not made the numbers up, they come from a document at Freiburg :) I have just sent you a private message with the details. I suspect that the problem may be that the document covers losses reported on a particular date, so the aircraft were actually lost some time before these dates. I hope that with the full details of the document in hand, you will be able to clarify this issue,

Warm regards,

Paul Thompson