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-   -   German day fighter top aces by JG (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=45066)

knusel 17th May 2016 18:03

German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Hello there gentlemen,

this is a compilaton of the German top day fighter aces by JG. I'm particularly intrested in the definite top aces of JG's 6, 11, 76, 300 and 301.
  • JG1 Hans Ehlers
  • JG2 Kurt Bühligen
  • JG3 Joachim Kirschner
  • JG4 Wilhelm Steinmann
  • JG5 Heinrich Ehrler
  • JG6 Fritz Stehle or a guy named Gerhard Lange
  • JG7 Rudolf Rademacher
  • JG11 Anton Hackl or Horst-Günther von Fassong
  • JG26 Adolf Galland
  • JG27 Hans-Joachim Marseille
  • JG51 Anton Hafner
  • JG52 Erich Hartmann
  • JG53 Wolfgang Tonne
  • JG54 Otto Kittel
  • JG76 Roloff von Aspern,Ernst Düllberg,Hans Philipp and Maximilian Stotz
  • JG77 Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert
  • JG300 Konrad Bauer or Peter Jenne or Rudi Zwesken
  • JG301 Kurt Welter or Anton Benning or Walter Loos
  • JG302 Heinrich Wurzer

Cheers,

Michael

Johannes 19th May 2016 09:30

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Hi Michael

Not sure about JG 2 as Bühligen included u/c in his total of 112, he had at least 99 confirmed, maximum of 105 confirmed. Mayer had 102 confirmed.

JG 7 =Stehle with 4
JG 11 = Hans-Heinrich Koenig with 24, Hackl 22+(likely leader)
JG 76 Von Aspern with 8
JG 300 Bauer, Zwesken and Bretschneider each with 21
JG 301 Kurt Welter with 17

Then we have training units. I think that these would attack heavy bombers if they came their way?

JGr.Ost Karlheinz Cordes with 2
JGr.west Hermann Hintzen and Schmid each with 2
JGr.Sud Horst Rippert and Rainer Müller-Haagen with 6 each.
JG 104 Eberhard Bock with 3

Other oddities:-

Kdo.262 Helmut Baudach and Alfred Schreiber with 2 each
Kdo.Nowotny Franz Schall with 5
JG 400 Siegfried Schubert with 3
Kdo.Hermann(at night) Friedrich-Karl Müller, Horst John and Kurt Roder with 3 each.
EGJ 2 Oskar-Heinz Bär
JG 200 Eduard Isken with 7
ZKG30 Peter Laufs with 4(presume twin engine fighters, day)
LG 2 Herbert Ihlefeld with 56
Jv44 Adolf Galland with 6
JG 50 Hermann Graf and Walter Grislawski each with 2.

I agree with you other listings. Joachim Müncheberg with 82 just misses out with Galland on 83 with JG 26.


Kind Regards

Johannes

HGabor 20th May 2016 19:24

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Michael,

I would put eg. Lipfert in JG 52 and delete Hartmann. Lipfert had far more victories than Hartmann. He could have max. 100-130, as his 352 was b.llsh.t...

Gabor

Erich 21st May 2016 03:05

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
more than 1/2 of Welter's W.S. claims are in 5./JG 302

Johannes 21st May 2016 09:25

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Hi Guys

Relegating Hartmann really only opens a can of worms. Also I don't doubt Lipfert's honesty, but what about Barkhorn and Rall? Do we also relegate Kirschner from the JG 3 top place, and how would you work out the top JG 2 and JG 5 places?

Kind Regards

Johannes

HGabor 21st May 2016 11:20

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Having the opportunity to review the REAL soviet losses from TsAMO (Podolsk, Russia) sources of the 5 & 17 VA in 1944-45, it was a shocking experience to compare them to Axis claims. For Hartmann, approx. only every 3rd claim had a POTENTIAL match in the soviet records, while for eg. Lipfert, there were nearly perfect matches for 90% of his claims. Would be nice to see other fronts as well, but they are not part of my research. Hope one day others will fill this hole and clarify the rest. I am sure Hartmann did not have more than 150 real victories and it is about time to correct his gigantic lie/legend in aviation history.

In historical research there is no place for outdated political propaganda & fairy tales.

Gabor

Nick Beale 21st May 2016 11:51

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HGabor (Post 218614)

In historical research there is no place for outdated political propaganda & fairy tales.

Gabor

I quite agree and I think that the word "confirmed" is misleading if the word the Luftwaffe used was "anerkannt" (accepted/recognised) rather than "bestätigt" (confirmed). I think that maybe we should reserve "confirmed" for the cases where we can confidently match a claim to a loss.

Just about everyone overclaimed — usually in good faith and for completely understandable reasons — so comparing pilots' total claims doesn't get us very far in studying history. Even if we knew the true totals of aircraft each shot down, it would still tell us little without considering how many months/years a pilot spent in combat, how many sorties he flew and how many potential targets were available in the sectors where he served.

knusel 21st May 2016 11:59

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 218531)
Hi Michael

Not sure about JG 2 as Bühligen included u/c in his total of 112, he had at least 99 confirmed, maximum of 105 confirmed. Mayer had 102 confirmed.

JG 7 =Stehle with 4
JG 11 = Hans-Heinrich Koenig with 24, Hackl 22+(likely leader)
JG 76 Von Aspern with 8
JG 300 Bauer, Zwesken and Bretschneider each with 21
JG 301 Kurt Welter with 17

Then we have training units. I think that these would attack heavy bombers if they came their way?

JGr.Ost Karlheinz Cordes with 2
JGr.west Hermann Hintzen and Schmid each with 2
JGr.Sud Horst Rippert and Rainer Müller-Haagen with 6 each.
JG 104 Eberhard Bock with 3

Other oddities:-

Kdo.262 Helmut Baudach and Alfred Schreiber with 2 each
Kdo.Nowotny Franz Schall with 5
JG 400 Siegfried Schubert with 3
Kdo.Hermann(at night) Friedrich-Karl Müller, Horst John and Kurt Roder with 3 each.
EGJ 2 Oskar-Heinz Bär
JG 200 Eduard Isken with 7
ZKG30 Peter Laufs with 4(presume twin engine fighters, day)
LG 2 Herbert Ihlefeld with 56
Jv44 Adolf Galland with 6
JG 50 Hermann Graf and Walter Grislawski each with 2.

I agree with you other listings. Joachim Müncheberg with 82 just misses out with Galland on 83 with JG 26.


Kind Regards

Johannes


Hello Johannes,

thanks for your elaborate and intresting post !

To the others: this thread is not about the veracity of accepted claims. That issue really should be discussed in a separate thread.

Michael

HGabor 21st May 2016 12:05

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
NOT about the veracity? Then what is the whole purpose of it? Sorting fairy tales all over again?

Sorry, I thought this is a historical forum...

Nick Beale 21st May 2016 12:09

Re: German day fighter top aces by JG
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 218617)
this thread is not about the veracity of accepted claims. That issue really should be discussed in a separate thread.

Michael

So is it about comparing totals of events that may not even have happened? How is that useful?


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