Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Hello,
Am seeking info on the loss of Lancaster III, JB540 - "PH-L" on the night of 24/25-02-1944.

I see from other on line sites that the details of the aircraft are listed as "unknown". This is of course in relation to the loss of one of JB540's crewmen. Namely 1Lt. S.W.Penner USAAF. All seven crew were killed.

The MACR, numbered 9739 does include the Lancaster details, it's, Squadron, and serial number so cannot understand why the "unknown" is noted as I noted earlier.

Secondly Within the MACR report there is reference to 1Lt. Penner's RCAF Log book, giving details of the last three operations that he had flown, including his last.
So my second inquiry is about 1Lt. Penner. Was he originally an American in the RCAF, that chose to transfer to the USAAF and was then seconded to the RAF by his American Unit, the number of which is not noted.

Thirdly does anyone know 1Lt. Penner's USAAF Unit , which I presume to have been a Bomber Group/Squadron ?

Many thanks
Alex

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Hi Alex,

The a/c crashed at Michelau im Steigerwald, on the road to Gräfendorf following a nf attack, here's the matching NJ and Flak/Flak searchlight claims -full details will be presented in the first 1944 volume of the NCA series:

Lt. Dieter Kehrberg: 1 3./NJG102 Lancaster 4 km NNW Gräfendorf, i.Zus.Arb.: 3.500 m. 01.37 12 Sqn Lancaster JB540. Note: coned by 4./Flakscheinw. Abt. 708, also claimed by Flak of 3. & 5./schw. Flak Abt. 639, 2./schw. Flak Abt. 482, 6./schw. Flak Abt. 639 P.B.XII, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 263 (Eisb.) (‘Lancaster Gräfendorf 01.35 hrs’), victory Lt. Kehrberg confirmed on 6.9.1944

Cheers, Theo

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

PENNER, STANLEY W, is listed as a USAAF 1944 casualty here http://www.accident-report.com/crews/1944/NAME44P.html
BCL 1944 volume gives the information that 1st Lt Penner came from California.
There are numerous reports that Americans wanting to fight before 7 December 1941 simply crossed into Canada and enlisted in the RCAF. Once the 8th AF was operational, many chose to rejoin as an American airman, with European combat experience.
Whether that was the same for Penner, I cannot answer, but a probable route.

A little more searching and PENNER Stanley Warren is recorded here http://immigrantsofwar.blogspot.com/...interview.html
(Ctrl + F gives you a dropdown box and insert "Penner" to find the name) but nothing else seems recorded there about him.
It's likely that his body was returned to the US (California?) so it may be possible to trace him through American records.

Presumably you already found this older thread? http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...hp?t-3401.html

The rear gunner was RAAF and sometimes the Australian records contain additional details not available in RAF or RCAF records, so may be worth seeing if his file has been digitised for review.

Doesn't answer your questions, but may provide ways to get them.

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Hello,
Thank you for your response, it is most welcome.
1Lt. Penner is in a collective Grave (5.A.14 - 17 ) at Durnbach War Cemetery, Bayern, Germany, along with his six fellow crewmen..
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/c...tanley-warren/
So was not it would seem returned to the US.
Alex

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Hi Alex,

Not sure he's in a collective grave. https://www.uswarmemorials.org/html/...ID=52&MemID=92

He was in the RCAF. Trained in Alberta. https://archives.rcaf.museum/stanley...er-photographs

It often comes up but American members of the RCAF could transfer over to the USAAF BUT they had to first finish their tours with UK or Commonwealth squadrons. Something about the King's shilling paying for their training.

Regards,

Dave

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Alex. His RCAF service number was J-23120, listed as navigator. His USAAF unit was 12th Replacement Depot. It seems all USAAF aircrew were listed under this unit while they were finishing their tour with RAF, RCAF etc.
Richard

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Hello Dave,
Thank you for your contribution, it is most welcome.
It sure looks like he is NOT in a "collective Grave", makes one question how many others are in a similar situation ?

But it raises the question about the Collective Grave ?
Since your post I have looked at the names of ALL those that are at rest in Plot 5, Rowe A, which are numbered from 1 to 21.

This is what I came up with -
5.A. 1 to 6 said to be collective.?
5.A.7 to 10 said to be collective ?
5.A.9 to 13 said to be collective ?
5.A.14 to 17 said to be collective ( your post re Penner raised a question on this ).
5.A.18 to 21 said to be collective.

If the paper work shown with each of those at rest in this section is looked at it raises the "collective" question, as several have family inscriptions/quotations which I understand had to be paid for (I may be wrong on this ?) ,and would not I think apear on the headstone of a "collective" grave. But that does suggest that they had separate headstones so separate graves, not as discribed suggesting they were in a collectie grave ?

Anyway here are the names and grave numbers as I read them.
[b]Plot 5.A[b]
Collective Grave 1 - 6.
1 - CHARLESWORTH, T.G.W. - P/O - 170224 -RAFVR 44 Sqn - 31/03/44
2 - HILL, R.P.G. - F/Sgt - 1323823 - RAFVR - 44 Sqn - 31/03/44.
3 - JEFFERY, K. A - Sgt - 1870799 - RAFVR - 44 Sqn - 31/03/44.
4 - SCOTT, G.W - Sgt - 1307851 - RAFVR - 44 Sqn - 31/03/44.
5 - PERCIVAL, S - Sgt - 1147343 - RAFVR - 44 Sqn - 31/03/44.
6 - EVANS, L.J - Sgt - 1836030 - RAFVR - 44 Sqn - 31/03/44.

Collective Grave 7 to 10
7 - De Bij, H.M (Dutch) - P/O - 185127 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
8 - EDE, S.W - Sgt - 1880840 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
9 - LONGWORTH, B - F/Sgt - 1622238 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
10 - RICHES, F.H - F/Sgt - 1460401 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
11 - RIDSDALE, J.R - Sgt - 1591283 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
12 - TEANBY, T. E - Sgt - 1809870 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
13 - WHITFIELD, B - Sgt - 2209367 - RAFVR - 640 Sqn - 14/02/45.
There is some confusion with the collective grave numbers 7 to 10, because when looking at the paperwork for the collective grave numbers 9 to 13 it would seem to be a different collective grave. See Longworth and Riches.

Also the following for 11,12 and 13.
11 - TOMKINS, F - Sgt(Pilot) - 1376539 RAFVR - 7 Sqn - 20/05/42.
12 - MATTHEWMAN, D.F - F/Lt - 101013 - RAFVR - 540 Sqn - 08/08/44.
13 - STOPFORD, W. D - F/Sgt - 969477 - RAFVR - 540 Sqn - 08/08/44.
So confusing.

Then on to Collective Grave 14 to 17.
Names given in my first post.Which brought about this issue.

Then
Collective Grave 18 to 21
All 115 Sqn dated 14/10/41
18 - BROWNE, P.L - Sgt - 400407 - RAAF
.......DEARDEN, F.H.E - Sgt - 1110712 - RAFVR.
19 - JARRETT, P.W - Sgt - 923216 - RAFVR.
.......PREECE, M.S - Sgt - 1375153 - RAFVR.
20 - WIDDECOMBE, B.F - Sgt - 1260386 - RAFVR.
21 - STEWART, F. P - Sgt - 987915 - RAFVR.

Comments and/or explanations for the "collective Grave" - individual airman's Headstone's with inscriptions is most welcome.

Thank you Richard for the RCAF explanation and USAAF Unit details, it explains how he came to have an RCAF Log Book.

Thanks
Alex

Re: Lancaster Loss, 24/25-02-1944
 

Just a little follow up.
Aircraft involved were -

5.A 1 - 6
Lancaster III - ND795 - "KM-C" - ( 1 crewman became a pow ).
5.a.7 - 13
Halifax III - MZ856 - "C8-S".
5.À. 18 - 21
Wellington Ic - Z8844 - "KO-S".
5.A.11 - TOMKINS.
Stirling I - N6073 - "MG-Y".
5.A.12 - 13 - Matthew man & Stopford.
Mosquito PR.IX - LR433.
Alex