Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Hi

Few questions that remain unanswered for me.


Both Oberstlt Hasso von Wedel of Stab/JG 3 and Uffz. Karl-Heinz Feldmann of 3./JG53 crashed while landing their aircraft in the UK. Is it known how quickly they extricated from ther aircraft, and how quickly they were arrested? I understand that Feldmann landed on miliary grounds, so it should be a pretty quick action.

Did and of pilots shot down during the noon action left any account? I mean Uffz. Andreas Walburger of 2./JG 27 or JG 53 airmen in particular. Aside, one of the pilots had been chased for a while and tried to evade his pursuer, but I cannot identify him.

Do 17Z W.Nr. 2555 F1+FS of 8./KG 76 belly landed at Castle Farm with its starboard engine stopped. Photos suggest that both engines did not work. Also, is there any evidence of fire on board?

Does anyone have a copy of P/O Tobin (No 609 Sqn) report for the day? I cannot find it in TNA, and it seems there is no quote in the ORB.

Thanks!

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Hello,

Re: Hasso von Wedel

September 15, 1940.

It was a day of stark tragedy for others. Far below the swirl of battle, at Hann's farm, Bilsington, a village above the Romney Marshes, thirty-one-year-old Alice Daw was getting her small daughter Vera ready for an outing. Her husband, William who farmed the smallholding, had promised them both a run in the car, and four-year-old Vera was on tiptoe with excitement. Aerial dogfights in this part of Kent were now so commonplace that few villagers even bothered to take shelter. At this moment, tinkering with his old rattle-trap inside the barn, Daw wasn't even conscious that there was plane overhead - or that Oberstleutnant Hassel [sic] von Wedel, the Luftwaffe's official historian and World War I comrade of Goering, was in dire trouble. At 6,000 feet over Maidstone, von Wedel never even saw the Hurricane that riddled his yellow-nosed Messerschmitt 109 with bullets. Circling frantically, losing height by the minute, it was cruel misfortune that his engine seized up as he glided over Hann's Farm.

In the barn below, Farmer Daw heard nothing; he was still servicing his car when the Messerschmitt ploughed through the roof of the barn above his head, knocking him unconscious and reducing the car to scrap metal, strewing its severed wings across a field nearby, fatally fracturing Alice Daw's skull as she ran from the cottage, and killing four-year-old Vera outright.

The first men on the scene, the local Fire Brigade, found von Wedel unhurt, his fall from his plane broken by a pile of manure, yet plainly the bald, eagle-faced man was on the verge of a crack-up. Near to tears, he could only repeat, 'I've killed a woman, I've killed a woman', over and over again. As one of the Fire Brigade hastened to the farmhouse to brew the stricken pilot a cup of tea, somehow no one had the heart to break the news concerning the child.

See:
Eagle Day The Battle of Britain - August 6 - September 15 1940.
Collier,Richard
London:J.M. Dent & Sons,1980 rep. (Originally published by Hodder & Stoughton in 1966).
p.211

Col.

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

In respect of the8./KG 76 aircraft, Rolf Heitsch told me that the starboard engine was totally destroyed and the port engine idling. No talk of fire.
I have the account of Tzschoppe of 1./JG 532 shot down at 1210 hrs. I have combat reports and logbook entries from 1./JG 53

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Thanks Col. So It looks I am after Feldmann, as I guess it would take a few minutes for the Fire Brigade to reach the spot of the crash.

Chris, I have checked the book, and Heitsch does not mention fire, indeed. Still, it seems the only candidate, as other III/KG 76 aircraft seem to have their port engines disabled. I understand I/KG 76 flew another route, and I do not consider it at all, the losses being too far away.
Tzschoppe seems not the man I am looking for, though his account bears few similarities. Do you have opertional orders for I/JG 53? It looks like each Staffel operated at some intervals, as loss times recorded (unless incorrect) show quite a discrepancy.

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Franek: Not sure what you are seeking but I am not sure by what you mean operational orders which if I am correct are very rare indeed. According to the logbook:

1. Montreuil-Neuville to Etaples 1003-1015 for the Gruppe to get together.
2. Etaples-1203-1220. RTB radio failure. Ghesla 1 victory; Müller & Tzschoppe missing.
3. 1445-1600 hrs. Escort. Rühl & Kopperschläger one victory each
4. 1855-1915 hrs. Alarmstart; nothing to report

I do have a photo of Feldmann but failed to track him down when I was writing my first book

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

1./JG53 was engaged as follows:
12.00-13.40 hrs
14.50-16.10 hrs

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

I am trying to make some sense out of loose information available.
By operational orders I understand times up & down, rendesvous points, mission objectives, route, etc. I can imagine that such documents are rare, nonetheless bits and pieces might be available here and there. It is known that JG 53 was assigned to escort KG 76, but did they fly in full strength at once, or were they flying successive patrols along the route?
If 1./JG 53 took off around ~12:00, then a loss of Tzschoppe at 12:09 seems a bit too early. On the other hand Ofw. Müller was lost on 12:40 over Isle of Sheppey, not far away.

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

12.09 = German time 13.09 hrs.
Times from logbook are German times.

Robert

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Ah, sure, have not noticed that. Still, the discrepancy between Müller and Tzschoppe is intriguing.

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Well I think one was lost during approch flight and second during return flight. Not all landed at 13.40 hrs.

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Müller was a bit of a mystery-no K Report if I remember. Experienced pilot who had flown in Spain & then died in Germany in 1944

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Hello

Sorry to interfere in the discussion.

Muller(sure ? that he was the same guy of Spain?) having been taken prisoner on 15/09/40,under what circumstances did he die (18/06/44, source J.Prien)?

Regards
Michel

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

He was known on the Staffel as Mollinero, something to do with his time with Legion Condor according to those I interviewed. I believe it was appendicitis according to the NVM

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Thanks for replies. I find it weird, that Muller would crash of Sheppey at the time he should land home. Either he got lost or entangled in a prolonged dog fight, but I do not see the evidence of the latter.
Matti S has Muller as repatriated to Germany for some reason, I believe. Molinero is miller or mueller in Spanish. Either nick or fake name from LC period.
Anyway, Iam looking for an aircraft chased from around Croydon-Maidstone-Tonbridge area for quite a few miles until it crashed. Walburger would match, but was he engaged in the area?

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Hi,

general orders for JG53 on 15.9.40:
1)first operation
escort for KG30 and subordinated II./KG76
2)second operation
fighter sweep over North Kent

Robert

Re: Some questions re 15 September 1940 losses
 

Thanks.
I understand that JG 27 had to cover I & III/KG 76, and other units to sweep SE England. The question is, if escort was flown by whole unit in a single formation or if each Gruppe or Staffel had a particular area to cover.
Aside, I have just realised, that Heitsch flew the Do 17 with a flame thrower. This may explain the reports of fire on board.