He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

I am trying to establish the correct loss date, and fate of the crew of an He 111 of St./KG.27, which was shot down on either the 17th or 18th of July 1940. The crew included Oberst. Georgi, the Geschwader Kommodore.
The following sources list the loss on the 17th: Ramsey/Cornwell (BOB Then and Now), Cull (Battle for the Channel), Balss (Deutsche Luftwaffe Losses & Claims). Also, DeZeng/Stankey Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries and the Kracker Luftwaffe Archive both list Georgi as MIA on the 17th.
These sources list the loss on the 18th: Parry (BOB Combat Archive), Mason (Battle Over Britain)
The query over the date is compounded by an entry in the Luftflotte 3 Einzelmeldung for 18th July, which roughly translates as:
"1 He 111 of St./KG.27 about 100 to 120 km WNW Brest emergency water landing. Crew, including Geschwaderkommodore Oberst Georgii spotted in life raft. Rescue operations in progress." This doesn't make it clear if the aircraft crashed on the 18th, or on the 17th -- with the life raft spotted on the 18th. Also, this implies that they might have survived.
Any help in resolving this would be much appreciated.

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Hello Peter,

this source lists the loss on 17 July 1940: Gen.Qu. loss return 21 July 1940 item 15.

Regards
Leo

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Thanks Leo, the weight of evidence is clearly supporting the 17th July date.

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

I have a pre-war photo of Georgi if you are interested

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

I am posting on behalf of a colleague, whose grandfather was among the survivors of an a/c that was shot down on the 15th September 1940 and crashed at Burgess Farm, Frittenden, Kent. Please see link and forum thread. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ht=schmidtborn

His grandfather shared his story with him, but for some reason his posts are not going through here, and he would like to get in touch with Peter Cornwell or Chris Goss authors.

Could you please advice? Thank you

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Thanks Chris, yes I am interested!
What are your thoughts on the correct date for this incident.

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

zsuzia: I was in touch with Schierning's son and have quite a bit on this including photos. Private Message me. Being new, you might have to post a few more messages or give me an email address. Peter Cornwell has retired from writing and this Board

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Peter: Don't forget the reports were written after the event and was normally related to the day before

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Thanks Chris, can you mail a lo res copy of your Georgi pic? I won't use it without your permission.

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Hi,

NVM gives 17.7.40 14.15 hrs.

Regards

Robert

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Thanks Robert, the 14.15 time is intriguing, because the 145 Squadron claims for a He 111 shot down 20 miles south of Bognor is 13.15 (14.14 EST). This combat took place on the 18th and there is substantial evidence in the form of 5 combat reports and the ORB, which state that the Heinkel landed in the water and some of the crew were seen to leave the aircraft, so it was undoubtedly destroyed. As far as I can tell there are no Quartermaster reports for an He 111 destroyed on the 18th, which brings me back to Georgi's aircraft logged as destroyed on the 17th -- there were no RAF claims for He 111s on that date. I guess that this still remains a bit of a mystery.

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Hi,

more infos: takeoff at 13.29 hrs. Objective: weather and armed reconnaissance W of Brest. Last message was heard at 14.15 hrs when aircraft was approx. 150 km W of Brest.

Regards

Robert

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Hi,

I think they got a Ju 88 of 3./KG54 that had taken off at approx. 12.30 hrs to attack shipping in the area of IOW.

Regards

Robert

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Thanks Robert, I will look into that one.

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

Hi Peter,
I have been on the same search before I found this thread.

In most of my books the crew of KG27 Kommodore Oberst Bernhard Georgi are recorded as lost 17 Jul 1940, confirmed by Peter Cornwell "Then and Now" (p.541) which records 3 NCO's killed but Georgi, Oblt Buss and one NCO missing.

In BBCA vol.1/p.79 the loss is given as 18 Jul 1940 and simply says that Georgi, Oblt Buss and one airman were missing.

WASt wartime loss cards record
Ofw (FF) Hermann Schulze (14/62662), born 29 Feb 1912 at Beeskow / Mark (card confirms death as drowned after ditching) body recovered 23 Aug 40 at Tregastel north of Morlaix.
Oblt Walter Buss (12/62693), born 6 Jun 1913 at Frankfurt i/M lost on 17 Jul 1940 possibly 150 km west of Brest (body recovered 10 Aug 1940 near Isle of Molene (?) buried at Brest.

And also Ofw. Ernst Möller (15/62662), born 4 Aug 1911 at Orlamünde/Thüringia, lost on 17 Jul 1940 approx 150 km west of Brest, body recovered 22 Aug 1940 "bei der Kappelle" St Sansom.
Gefr. Kurt Frinzel (70/62662), born 14 Apr 1920 at Meiningen, Thüringia..(reverse of WASt card confirms death 17.7.40 feindflug. and possibly seen in a boat 18.8.40) body recovered 23 Aug 40 bear Brest.

Please can anybody confirm the date of the loss. I suspect shot down on 17 July, survivors into a dinghy, sighted on 18 July but after then drowned.
Thank you Peter

Re: He 111 St./KG.27 loss 17 or 18 July 1940
 

I just found a very old post/thread on here

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=20750