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Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good afternoon Gentlemen,
I just worked through the Me 210 part of Robert Forsyth's "Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units". It's a fascinating story of extreme teething troubles of a planes that had much more vices than qualities. Maybe it has also some philosophical dimension: if you want to develop an aircraft that can do everything, you'll end up with an aircraft that can do nothing. Some kills scored in the Me 210 are mentioned:
Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Knusel,
The correct name is Zsámboki Dezső (RHAF) Others: 15 AAF, 49 BW, 461 BG, 766 BS, B-24H-15-FO, S/N: 42-52366, '49', "Spirit of Hollywood/Gloria Jean", downed by RHAF RKI-flight, Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+54' (Gy.sz.: 210.108.054) with Dóczy Lóránd alez. (Lt.Col.) pilot, Stark Elek őrm. (Sgt.) radioman-gunner on April 13, 1944 at Délegyháza (railway station), Hungary. 15 AAF, 49 BW, 461 BG, 764 BS, B-24H-15-FO, S/N: 42-52409, '16', "Hell's A Poppin", downed by RHAF RKI-flight, Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+58' (Gy.sz.: 210.116.058) with Konráth János fhdgy. (1Lt.) pilot, Újváry László zls. (Ens.) radioman-gunner on April 13, 1944 at Kelebia, Hungary. Soviet 8 VA(?) IL-2m3, downed by RHAF Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.1+07' (Gy.sz.: 210.215.107) with Kovács József szkv. pilot and Villám Mihály tiz. radioman-gunner at Ungvar, on October 7, 1944. Soviet 5 VA La-5, downed by RHAF 102/2. Sq. Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.1+??' (Gy.sz.: 210.xxx.1xx) with Nagy Dezső fhdgy. (1Lt.) pilot and Csorba Ferenc szkv. radioman-gunner at Szarvas, Hungary, on October 20, 1944. etc... Hope this helps. Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
I would like to know where Robert got the data for claims of Dassow and Stehle....does anybody know?
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
RHAF RKI-flight Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+54' (Gy.sz.: 210.108.054) with Dóczy Lóránd alez. (Lt.Col.) pilot and Stark Elek őrm. (Sgt.) radioman-gunner also got credited a P-38 on April 13, 1944 at Szolgaegyháza (Szabadegyháza), Hungary, while the 15 AAF lost no P-38s this day. (It had to be a damaged plane only.)
RHAF RKI-flight Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+31' (Gy.sz.: 210.073.031) with Pozsgay Antal hdgy. (Lt.) pilot and Szukits Imre (Sgt.) radioman-gunner got credited a P-38 on April 13, 1944 at Kiskunlacháza-NW, Hungary, while the 15 AAF lost no P-38s this day. (It had to be a damaged plane only.) 15 AAF, 82 FG, 95 FS, P-38G-10-LO, S/N: 42-13030 crashed near Vincenzo in Italy this day (Robert L. Joley killed). Not sure if it was fatally damaged on the Budapest mission by the prev. Hungarian Me 210Ca-1 destroyers and crashed at home, or it was just simply a fatal training accident. RHAF RKI-flight Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+14' (Gy.sz.: 210.034.014) with Béles Tibor hdgy. (Lt.) pilot and Pajor József (Sgt.) radioman-gunner got credited a B-24 at Katymár-S, Hungary on April 13, 1944. This crashed plane was 15 AAF, 304 BW, 454 BG, 738 BS, B-24H-10-FO, S/N: 42-52248, "Stand By", however, chances are that it was downed by Me 110G of 5./ZG.1 (Oblt. Romain). 5/1. éjszakai vadászszázad (5/1. "Owl" NFS) Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+??' (Gy.sz.: 210.???.0??) with Zsámboki Dezső őrm. (Sgt.) pilot and Sallós Gábor (Géza?) őrv. radioman-gunner got credited a B-24 at Gara-W, on April 13, 1944. But: since they were killed at Paks still on April 3, 1944, they could not score anything on April 13th. Not to mention, that on April 13, 1944 a B-17 (B-17F-105-BO, S/N: 42-30436) and NOT a B-24 crashed at Gara-W! Here the records were obviously messed up. The solution could be that they mutually shot each other down with 15 AAF, 304 BW, 459 BG, 758 BS B-24H-15-FO, S/N: 42-52322, "Hellzapoppin", which also crashed near Paks on April 3, 1944, at Kajdacs-N, and this B-24 was credited to them later on the 13th at Gara. (Wrong date, wrong type) (RKI-flight = (Hungarian) Air Experimental Institute, Destroyer Squadron - Ferihegy airport, Budapest) Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good evening Gabor,
thanks for the many Hungarian Me 210 scorers. On page 50 Robert Forsyth mentions that 102. Gyorsbombázo osztály accounted for approximately 25 Soviet aircarft shot down. I wonder if the Me 210 top scorer is a Hungarian... Good evening John, the 9.4.43 kill of Dassow is well known but the Dassow probable on 1.3.43 and the Stehle kill on 13.4.43 were new to me, too. Cheers, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
And what was claimed then? Is there more information in the book?
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
It is entirely possible that most Me 210 victories were claimed by Hungarian crews. On October 20, 1944 Nagy Dezső fhdgy. pilot and Csorba Ferenc szkv. gunner (102/2. Sq.) destroyed a La-5 at Szarvas, Hungary. This time multiple attacks hammered the soviet airfield at Szarvas, where La-5FN (S/N: 39212966, white '66') of 5 VA, 92 IAP was destroyed. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Ivan Sergeevich Bemov was injured. The reported 8 Ju 88s were in fact Hungarian Me 210Ca-1 fast-bombers. (No daytime Ju 88s operated in the area.)
On October 23, 1944 Bárdossy Vilmos hdgy. pilot and Bilau József szkv. gunner claimed a La-5 at Túrkeve, Hungary. This time La-5F (S/N: 39215288) of 5 VA, 486 IAP was lost at Orosháza, Hungary. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexandr Durakov lost engine and belly landed unhurt. Due to the distance, these were probably two different events. On November 4, 1944 the Kalmár Oszkár őrm. - Gazsi István tiz. and the Szentpéteri György hdgy. - Kotulán Péter szkv. crews (both from 102/1. Sq.) claimed 1-1 Yak-3 over Sári, Hungary. Found no such permanent losses in the soviet 5 VA records. On November 13, 1944 Orbán József zls. pilot and Vörös Tibor tiz. gunner (102/2. Sq.) claimed a Yak at Nagyszénás, Orosháza-N. This day the 5 VA lost 2 Yak-9M, 2 Yak-1B and 1 Yak-9D permanently. On November 23, 1944 Hungarian Me 210 crews claimed 2 Yak-3 and 2 La-5. All these claims require more investigation regarding reported distance, circumstances, etc. Observing combat results from an Me 210 was not easy, that's why the relative high number of potential overclaims. Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Hello John,
Dassow claimed a B24 (probable) in March 43 and a Spitfire in April. Stehle claimed a P38 in April. Hello Gabor, yes, you may be right. Have you come across a Hungarian pilot with two or more Me 210 kills ? Have a nice Sunday, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Perhaps lt.col. Doczy....
Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Knusel, Thanks! I still would like to know Robert Forsyth sources..... I have the B-24 of Dassow on 2.3.1943. Confirmed by war diary of Oblt. Paris.
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Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Hi guys
I should mention that some of the information included in Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units by Forsyth, such as that regarding the claims by Leutnant Rudolf Dassow (22 victories, RK, killed in action 25 August 1944) on 1 March 1943 and 9 April 1943, is also given in A History of the Mediterranean Air War, 1940 - 1945, Volume 3 by Shores (pages 368 and 462). The first victory is listed as a probable and in regards to the second it is written that he is believed to have been one of the four claimants against the Spitfire fighters of the 52nd FG, USAAF. Horrido! Leo |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good morning Gabor,
OK, I keep Dóczy Lóránd in mind who was credited with 2 kills in the Me 210 on 13.4.44. Good morning John, OK, I note down 2 Me 210 claims for Dassow. In Robert Forsyth's OSPREY volume, there's no sources or bibliography page. Shall I tell you the names of the acknowledgements ? Good morning Leo, may it be that Dassow's probable from 2.3.43 was confirmed later ? I wish you a good start into the new week, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
The reason why Lt.Col. Dóczy Lóránd got credited 2 victories on April 13, 1944 in his Me 210Ca-1 Z.0+54, is because he destroyed a B-24H (S/N: 42-52366) at Délegyháza indeed, plus he claimed a P-38 at Szolgaegyháza (Now: Szabadegyháza).
Since the 15 AAF lost no P-38 in Hungary this day, this was just probably a damaged P-38. BUT: 15 USAAF, 325 FG, 317 FS lost a Republic P-47D-15-RE Thunderbolt (S/N: 42-75651) right at Szolgaegyháza on April 13, 1944! When investigators saw the destroyed, burned remains of the Thunderbolt, they thought this had to be Dóczy's P-38 claim at the very same spot! So he got credited the P-38 since an American wreck was found at the reported spot indeed. The P-47 was in such a bad condition, that nobody could see that it was a P-47D, not a P-38. (Or Dóczy shot down the Thunderbolt there and reported wrongly as a P-38...????? If so, both of his claims were legitimate victories, not overclaims and perhaps he had the most victories in the Me 210 indeed.) P-47D pilot, 2Lt. Richard K. Malloy (O-673405) was KIA. His plane hit the ground vertically with full speed... BTW, Lt.Col. Dóczy Lóránd (1905-1978) has passed away in 1978 in Montreal, Canada. Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good morning Gabor,
thanks for that elaborate and interesting info. If Dóczy Lóránd was credited with 2 kills we could consider him the most successful scorer of the Me 210 until we find someone credited with three kills. I wonder if Dassow's B-24 on 1.3./2.3. was part of his total of 22 kills ? Have a nice Tuesday, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Minor detail: some sources say Dóczy Lóránd, others say Lóránt. Both versions are known. Also, some say he passed away in 1974, others say in 1978 in Canada. See his, including his 1934 wedding pictures here:
https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000...gged_profiles= Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Hello Gabor,
some sources say Dóczy Lóránd, others say Lóránt ? Are both spellings possible/common for that family name in Hungary ? Have a nice Wednesday, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
This name has German roots (came from Roland). In Hungarian the Lóránd is just the OLDER version of Lóránt. Since in Dóczy's family/wedding info it was written as Lóránt, I think we can use the newer, Lóránt 'version' of his name. By the way, he was recorded as an aviator under both names, so the same person :-)
Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Hello Gabor,
which version is written on the last document of his life: the tombstone ? Kind regards, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
I have never seen his tombstone. But his name is Lóránt in his wedding- and some family paper(s), so I assume Lóránt is the correct one.
Lóránd was probably just a typo in some researchers' publications. Not a big deal, both names are used and these 2 versions almost sound the same. Lóránd is the older, historical version and one popular University (oldest and largest) in Budapest is called Eötvös Lóránd Tudományegyetem (or: ELTE in short - https://www.elte.hu/en/), so probably this is the more common version, that's why the error in some aviation publications. Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good morning Gabor,
you're right, it's a common cause of typos when authors encounter an umcommon spelling which they correct wrongly. Typical German names subjected to miscorrection are Möller and Schmid. Have a nice weekend, Michael Zeh |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Yep, probably that's what happened.
Cheers, Gabor |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good morning,
is it possible to determine how many Me 210 Rudolf Dassow did score ? Cheers, Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
My estimated guess would be max 7.
John |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Good afternoon John,
a possible Me 210 ace ? That's exciting. Do you have Rudolf Dassow claims that I don't have ? I have:
Michael |
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
No I don't. But I believe his victory on 22.2.44 was probably his 11th....I counted backwards....
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Rudolf Dassow might be both the top scorer of the Me 210 (2-7 kills) and the top scorer of the Me 410 (14-19 kills).
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Did the Hungarians ever complain about being given these dreadful aircraft ?
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
According to the Osprey book on the Me 210/410 the Hungarians made changes and adjustments to the German Me 210 design like new engines, a longer fuselage and longer leading slats. Luftwaffe pilots found it better than the German version.
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers
Hello James,
I wish I knew the exact Me 210 score of Rudi Dassow but the OSPREY volume doesn't make a statement about that . Best greetings from Switzerland, Michael |
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