Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

Gentlemen,does the Luftwaffe use captured P-47s and P-51s in German markings ever against the USAAF ever? I know this topic was probably discussed a few years earlier but I need to refresh my memory. The Luftwaffe claimed they didn't captured RAF and USAAF planes in combat against the Allies. The USAAF pilots and crewmen reported the Luftwaffe had actually did flew these captured Allied planes a lot. Are there any aviation websites that explained something like that?

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

There was talk from a prisoner from 1.(F)/121 that a P-47 was to be used by another pilot he knew for reconnaissance over Southern England in Spring 1944, but no evidence that it was ever used. It was a "Thunderbolt. Besides, they are also fitted with cameras; it was an English reconnaissance aircraft which had been shot down, that’s to say it wasn’t shot down, but was forced to land on account of some damage". I don't know of any English Tunderbolt fitted with cameras though, so mistaken i/d I think.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

No, they wouldn't waste captured aircraft like that. We can assume these reported encounters were friendly fire incidents or misidentification. Same apply to B-17 or B-24 used as shadower, they were mostly used for parachuting agents over Allied held territories by night.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

The Allies did not do it-massive risk of being shot down by your own side to, from and during the flight and what would happen if you were shot down and captured flying such an aircraft? I agree with Alfred

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

gentlemen,

only pictures of prey planes are shown, which carry a beam cross or where it can be proved that they carried one:

http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/beute/usa/ (german)

for example:

"P-51B Mustang, code T9+HK"
"P-51C Mustang, code T9+CK"
"P-47D Thunderbolt 'Beetle', code YF+U"

the question remains, were they ever used in combat operations?
hmh, ... maybe "Zirkus Rosarius"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirkus_Rosarius


best regards
marc

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

Hello All,

There are excellent books on the subject one is called "On Special Missions" (The luftwaffe's Research and Experimental Squadrons 1923-1945) by J. Richard Smith, Eddie J. Creek & Peter Petrick.

The other is "Strangers in a strange land," by Hans Heiri Stapfer.

It appears that they didn't use any captured enemy aircraft in actual combat...

The book says...
"With new allied fighters appearing on all fronts, the luftwaffe was finding itself hard pressed to fulfil its reconnaissance missions because its aircraft were losing their previous performance advantages.

It was then realised that if the speed & manoeuvrability of luftwaffe reconnaissance aircraft could be measured in mock combat against the best enemy opposition, the knowledge thus gained would do much to improve the survival rate of the German crews."

When enemy fighters that were captured had finished being tested & evaluated at the luftwaffe testing station at Rechlin, they were given to the experimental squadron for enemy aircraft (Versuchsstaffel fur Feindflugzeug) under the command of Hauptman Rosarius. They were tested against the latest german reconnaissance aircraft at extreme altitudes. later on, they were used to instruct the german fighter pilots on how to deal with enemy fighters in mock combats.

Spitfire PR XI (MB945) German coded T9+EK.
P47D-2RA Thunderbolt (42-22490) German coded 7+9 then T9+FK later
P47D-16-RE Thunderbolt (42-75971) German coded T9+LK
*P47D-5-RE Thunderbolt (42-8476) German code unknown.
P38 F-5E lightning (44-23725) German coded T9+MK
P51B Mustang (43-24825) German coded T9+HK
P51B Mustang German coded T9+CK
Hawker Typhoon Ia (EJ956) German coded T9+GK
De Havilland Mosquito IVB (Sno unknown) German coded T9+XB - non airworthy

*= from Strangers in a strange land.

Rosarius said after the war that the maximum number of aircraft available to the "zirkus" at any one time was estimated at 22. He remembers that these included 4x mustangs, 3x thunderbolts, 3x spitfires (a IX, XI & XII) 2x typhoons 2x tempests
2x lightnings, 2x mosquitos a harvard & 2x soviet fighters=( a yak9 & a yak3)

The above info was taken from the two books listed above.

Hope it helps

Regards
Tony.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

A photo was posted here showing a P-51 in German markings. I do not recall it having the T9 code.

Best,
Ed

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

Hi Ed,

There is a photo in Stapfer's "Strangers in a Strange Land" (page 57) showing, albeit indistinctly, the white T9 code letters (over olive drab fuselage sides) on P-47 T9+FK.

On page 58 is a P-51 which can be seen to be T9+HK but with the T9 in black this time. on a natural metal fuselage.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

It isn't exactly true that no German aircraft were used by the Allies. The British used an ex-Norwegian He.115 on clandestine missions from the UK and Malta, and ex-Greek Do.22s for anti-submarine missions in the Eastern Mediterranean. But combat missions, local ASW excepted, no.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

The photo I refer to showed a P-51 on the ground with debris nearby.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

The photo I refer to has not been saved, but there was a previous discussion which mentions the aircraft having camouflage paint.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=48407

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

There was a picture posted not too long ago that showed a destroyed P-47 with the T9 code clearly visible. It looks like a early razorback without the pylons on the wing. It is just possible that this is the end of P-47D-2 -RE, s/n 42-22490, EX 355 FG, 358 FS, lost November 7,1943. There is a shot of an early razorback P-47D without pylons flying in March 1945, so it's quite possible that this is 42-22490, which means that it survived until the end of the war

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

The use of Luftwaffe P-47s and P-51s is still relatively unknown. While it is obvious that these captured examples were used mostly for testing and evaluation, there are recorded instances of captured P-47s and P-51s being used in and observed by Allied pilots.
In the book "Aerial Reconnaissance:the 10th PRG in WWII" by Tom Ivie, there is a sighting of a German flown P-47 (p115).:"...Lt. Ricci brought back reports of sighting a possible German flown P-47, noting that it was painted green with a bright yellow nose and tail section with black cross on the fuselage." These reported marking are perfect for the German flown Beute aircraft. Also, there was a P-51B shot down on October 29, 1944 by the 82nd Fighter Group over Austria

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

Thank you for your good answers fellows.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

As I understand it, the key issue was that the standard Axis aviation gasoline quality was 87 octane, much lower than the 100 octane used by Allied air forces. Getting high octane gas for the Germans was a real issue. The difference was due to the source of the gas, coal pyrolysis versus regular refining. Using low octane gas in a high octane engine would cause that engine to seize and to fail. This happened with the Italian capture P-38.


Vic

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

A report I read indicates that 100 octane fuel was not very much liked by the Allies. From the German side, enough Allied examples were recovered for use and while fuel was limited, it was available for test purposes. As you mention, 87 octane was common but toward the end of the war, the order was to fly missions when it was thought they could make a difference. With thousand bomber raids, sending up a squadron would not be practical.


A German report about 100 octane fuel indicates that spark plugs had to be changed regularly in Allied aircraft that used it. By that I mean more often than in aircraft that used a lower octane fuel.

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...-the-italians/


The P-38 captured by the Italians was the only "captured" WW2 aircraft used by it's captors in actual combat (as different to "spy" missions), that I've found with documented evidence and not just hearsay. I've attached a link to the warthunder site for quick reference. Despite its appearance on the gaming site, the Regia Aeronautica P-38 combat sortie is referenced in some detail in a number of other books. (Just not at hand to quote quickly.)


...geoff

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

While the story about Col Tondi (not Rotondi and not Lt Col or Lt) is well known, the listed site also retell a "Martin Caidin type" of story about an Italian pilot named Guido Rossi, which of course is pure fiction.

That story never happened! Not even Hollywood seems to have believed in it.....since we have not even a movie about it....

Col Tondi was the chief test pilot of the Italian Test Center at Guidonia and after sufficient test flights the Lightning was used in a few scrambles against USAAF bomber attacks.
He performed one interception and shot down one USAAF B-17F, and that was it.

I seriously doubt the story about another B-17 shot down on Sept 4th.
By that time Tondi had found out through his ground staff that the fuel the Italians used had seriously damaged the Lightning's fuel tanks and the aircraft was simply very unsafe to fly at all.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

Good call, Stig.
Unfortunately, I didn't have my books handy to confirm the details on the site.


...geoff

Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?
 

Didn´t those captured planes used to be shown to Luftwaffe´s fighter units so they could learn a libble more about the enemy? Years ago a large photo album with Brazilian pilot Egon Albrecht was sold on ebay. Here the few images with him checking some Zirkus Rozarius planes. Don´t know whether they did mock combats against their planes