Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Hello all,

This might be a long shot but I figured this was the best forum to ask. On 22 October 1943 a Norwegian Spitfire IX pilot (J.Helland, 332 sqd, North Wield) shot down a Fw 190 above Dètroit, France. Anyone able to confirm this and help me identify the unfortunate German pilot? Thanks a lot for your help.

Best regards
SOkland

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Another location is near Albert but the trouble is claims at the same time and location were five Fw 190s claimed destroyed, one probably destroyed and three damaged. German units involved were I./JG 3, II and III./JG 2 and II./JG 26. 9./JG 2 lost a Fw 190 in combat with three more damaged. Another case of over optimism?

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Checking Cato Guhnfeldt and his Spitfire Saga Vol 4 he says basically what Chris says, the place mentioned by the two Norwegian squadrons involved was over or near Albert.

Sgt Johannes Helland was flying MA422 AH-W during the mission.

Claims were made by:
Major Arne Austeen 331Sq: 2 Fw 190 destroyed
Ltn Björn Björnstad 331Sq: 1 Me 109 destroyed
Sgt Paul Coucheron 331Sq: 1 Fw 190 probably destroyed
Sgt Johannes Helland 332Sq: 1 Fw 190 destroyed
Major Kaj Birksted Wing Commander: 1 Fw 190 destroyed

Adding to that John Foreman has also found a claim by:
Capt Svein Heglund 331Sq: 1 Fw 190 damaged
Heglund was on that mission but Guhnfeldt has not located any such claim from the Norwegian.

The other three damaged aircraft mentioned by Chris are most likely those claimed some 10 minutes later over Arras by 129 Sq

Guhnfeldt states that the unit the Norwegians encountered was JG 2 but they in turn gave all their losses in the Arras area.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Stig,

Heglund's claim can be found at FC3 11Nov; CR: Air 50/129-91 according to my database.

Does Spitfire Saga give Coucheron's full name? I have him as Paul P M Coucheron, as does Shores & Thomas' 2nd TAF, but I suspect the initial P is a duplicate of Paul.

And, while we are talking Norwegian, is there a source for the service numbers of the aircrew in 333 (Nor) Squadron? It has about 20 claims, but I have no service numbers for them.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Thanks for that Frank

Coucheron's full name was Paul Peter Montagne, so initials PPM is quite correct.

Sorry, but I have no such things as service numbers for any pilots.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

A question, what is approx. the proportion of foreign pilots at that time in the fighter leg of the RAF ??
Rémi

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Stig,

Thank you. I have just ordered the six volumes of Spitfire Saga. I believe I already have a N-E/E-N dictionary, no knowledge of Norwegian, but a small collection of books in Norwegian.

Paul Peter Montagne Coucheron looks very much like a French name. If so, I wonder how he ended up in a Norwegian squadron. Unless he actually is Norwegian. Maybe Spitfire Saga will enlighten me.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Frank

First of all there are 7 volumes!
Secondly you are aware they are written in Norwegian with only a few summary pages in English?

Finally if you come across something you cannot comprehend, try me and I will try to help you. I am not Norwegian but their language is much easier to understand than Danish, and I have in general no problems with it. I have quite a few books in Norwegian, some on non-aircraft topics.

Cheers
Stig

PS: When I read the books, I was not paying any attention to Coucheron, so I don't even remember if he has a biography or not in one of the volumes...sorry about that

Coucheron
 

Thousands of British family names (or second names) are of French origin, especially since the battle of Hastings (1066) when the French-"Northmen" invaded England.

So Couderchon could be a British pilot in this Norwegian sqdn.

Conversely a large part of France in the SW region was English territory for several centuries and there are typically English names there.

1939-40 there was a French fighter pilot named (Capitaine) O'Byrne. He was perfectly French I think and the CO of 1st escadrille within GC I/4. He shot down a... Swordfish off Dakar, Senegal (an enemy AC after the British attack of French naval ships at Mers-el-Kebir on July 3, 1940).

The Luftwaffe had an Oberleutnant (Flying Officer or Lt) Douglas Pitcairn - not really a nice German name - who was the CO of 1./JG 51 Staffel but it seems that they were rather suspicious of him and soon posted him to the rear.

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Combat reports available here suggest, that a few of the pilots attacked one and the same Fw 190, pilot of which baled out.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7467303

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Hello
Most probably Following Erik Mombeek it's the Oblt Kässmeyer Erich (WND)68420/73 9./JG 2 WNr-0538 Baled out Following combat at 10:05 nearby Humbercourt
Regards
Phil

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Since around 1660 there has been quite at few norwegian officers by the name of Coucheron. The family name originate from The Netherlands.

JohnKS

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

So it looks spot on. Any other aircraft lost/damaged by the unit?

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

As I said in my earlier post, a 9 Staffel ac crash-landed at Beauvais and a 10 Staffel at Vitry with 30% and 20% damage respectively. Another crash-landing was due to engine failure

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

Norses encountered about 30 Fw 190s, so it would fit for III/JG 2. One shared destroyed and at least one shared damaged. I am confused with the probable claim, though, with the aircraft losing large part of a wing, though. I wonder if it was the shot down aircraft, further damaged to the point of disintegration. No own aircraft was lost, just one damaged.
Here is a separate report, easier to browse.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7467315
Re No 129 Sqn, here is their report.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7491318
It looks they claimed a German pilot to bail out, but some reports suggest glycol vapour, so must have been Me 109s or... Spitfires.
Aother combat involved Canadians, a bit later.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D7448165
Some food for thought.

Re: Identification: Fw 190 shot down at Detroit, France
 

I may help with the servicenumbers for most of 333 sqn personell. You may contact me by e-mail: stenwigXonlineXno (exchange the X with the usual)

JohnKS