Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Good afternoon,

I found this ULTRA message in XL7497 on p. 5 of DEFE 3 123:

NOW KNOWN THAT ON NINTH AUGUST QUOTE SPECIAL)) DETACHMENT LECHFELD £ LECHFELD UNQUOTE OPERATED AGAINST RECCE AIRCRAFT AND CLAIMED ONE SHOT DOWN
221928Z/8/44

As I cannot find such a claim in Tony Wood's data base, I am presuming that this is a garbled account of of Joachim Weber's claim of the eighth of August. If so, my question is this: Who garbled it? The Germans or the British?

best regards,

Jim

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Hello Jim

A possible candidate for you a Coastal Command PR Mosquito, see ORB 540 Squadron 09Aug44 (see AIR 27/2007/45 & AIR 27/2007/46).

Form 540 - F/Lt J.L.H.Richards and P/O R.J.Barents briefed for targets at Konigsberg, Gdynia and Danzig but failed to return.

Form 541 – Date 9.8.44, Aircraft Type & Number Mosquito IX LR435, Crew F/Lt J.L.H.Richards and P/O R.J.Barents, Time Up 0915 Base & 10.20. Details of sortie, Targets:- Konigsberg, Gdynia, Danzig. Airborne base 09.15 to refuel Coltishall. Airborne Coltishall 10.20. A/c failed to return. Reference 106G/2068

Kind regards
Pierre

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Richards and Barents were both interned in Sweden. Their objectives were in Prussia whereas Joachim Weber's claim on 08 Aug 44 was south-west of Munich. A better match would be Mosquito LR433, also of 540 Sqn which was lost on the 8th on a sortie to Munich. F/L D.L. Matthewman and F/S W.D. Stopford both KIA.

Best regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Hello Pierre,

Thank you for your candidate for the ninth with its excellent annotated references. Unfortunately, from the German side I can find no unit claim for this aircraft on this day. Also I know of no unit that had an aircraft of speed and range from Lechfeld that could have shot down a Mosquito over the Baltic Sea. The only German claim close in time and place is that of Weber a day earlier.

Andy,

I agree that Mosquito LR433 is the most logical candidate for Weber's claim ...on the eighth! Thus my question.

Best regards,
Jim

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Hello Jim

Having seen Andy’s posting I’m inclined to agree this is the more probable candidate.

While I can’t help further at this point maybe other forum members can. I had a look at the Ultra message you referred to and what is useful are the references at the top. CX/MSS/R284/A2 and CX/MSS/T284/51, this means there will be other messages that can be viewed elsewhere at TNA and likely give more information on time and origin of the original message.

CX/MSS/R284/A2 will be found under HW 5/569 and though these are messages relayed to interested parties on 23Aug’44, amongst the footnotes or in a summary listing should contain, the German time of origin, frequency on which it was intercepted and the stations call sign. Several years ago I viewed part of this series, and as an example the file was dated 17Jun, messages spanned a time period from 30May to 16Jun. As it happens the file I viewed contained messages CX/MSS/T217/1 and onwards, so adding 67 to get CX/MSS/T284 and the same value in days you come to 23Aug’44, so in all probability CX/MSS/T284/51 will also be in HW 5/569 or an adjacent volume at TNA.

I know a few forum members have gone through the HW material, so fingers crossed someone can help further.

Kind regards
Pierre

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Pierre, you are quite right that those "284" messages will be on HW 5/569 but unfortunately I did not photograph either of the items that you mention.

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

Pierre and Nick,

Thank you for "HW 5/569". It has not been digitised. Hopefully sometime in the future it will be available.

Jim

Re: Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?
 

I enquired a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, TNA has no plans to digitise HW5.