[thorthemighty]

Hi Rod/Icare9/Mark,

Originally Posted by Icare9

Do you know for sure whether LM472 came down as large pieces of wreckage (indicating some heavy damage) or as pieces widely scattered (indicating a mid air explosion)?

Here are some more "details" about the crash and the aftermath.....once again any thoughts greatly appreciated!

Eye-Witness reports from Geilsdorf:

“On the 16 January 1945 we heard many planes in flight over our surroundings. One of them appeared very low over our village, Geilsdorf. It was burning. Many of our neighbours were afraid of the crash of plane into village houses. But burning plane glided over hill next to and blew up there”

“We saw a burning plane very low flying. It crashed into the lead of high electricity tension (power lines) and blew up. The crash site was about 30 metres from the road between Ruderitz and Geilsdorf.. Many parts, including engine, were on the opposite side of the road.-until 300 meters far."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

16th January 1945

The first at the scene of the crash was K Borowski (The Pole) who walked immediately from Schwand and found the survivor Jack Knight warming his hands by the burning plane. K.Borowski noted that the dizzy Jack Knight who was later walking around like a ghost, was completely confused and had absolutely NO recollections of the circumstances of his and his crew's demise.

Because Jack Knight was located near the rear Gunner’s compartment, at first he was thought to be the rear gunner. It was snowing, with the temperature around minus 18 degrees. At that time, they were only able to locate two bodies.

Other villagers appeared on the crash site, and because Plauen was bombed in daylight hours, by 8th USAAF the locals were becoming “agitated” with the presence of a “foreign airman”. Many of them had relatives/friends in Plauen.

Jack Knight was taken to a local inn - Goldener Lowe (golden lion) - in order to get out of the snow and to receive some treatment for his burns. It was at THIS STAGE that Jack Knights mind and memory started to return and he realised the situation he was in, although he couldn't understand what anyone was saying. Again the locals became agitated and one woman, Frau Baumgartel took him to her home for the night.

The Luftwaffe party took over 30 minutes to reach the crash because of the snow and distance to travel from Plauen.


17 January 1945

The School teacher, Rudolf Schneider from Reichenbach/Vogtl, was asked to provide senior students to form a search party to locate the rest of the crew.- the outstanding five bodies were found deep in the snow.

A fireman from Obersdorf,, near Sangerhausen/Thuringia, and another from the firebrigade of Krebes-Weischlitz were called upon to de-activated the bombs.

The names of the deceased were made by the Commanding Officer from the Luftwaffe party, Gestapo Major OMUNS-who identified the remains by clothing and tags.(assisted by Jack Knight) His English was not good, and there were several misspellings.
Jack Knight was taken to Lazarett, Plauen and then to Chemnitz for treatment.

The wreckage of LM 472 was taken to PIRK and up until 1946 remained there beside a B 17 shot down at Ruderitz, 8 April 1945 (35 cart loads).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by RodM

From Knight's account and that of witnesses on the ground, it would seem possible that one or both of the starboard fuel tanks exploded. Knight does not say where he was when he was 'blown out' of the aircraft, but he would seem to have been at or near his station. Such an explosion would not necessarily destroy the whole aircraft. Common results of such explosions would be a wing breaking off or the nose section forward of the main spar breaking away (this latter result was not infrequent in a number of crashes I've investigated).

It would appear there was some "spread" of material...one eyewitness reported 300m spread at least....and being on two sides of the road would perhaps indicate that the a/c hadn't just impacted the ground...but had exploded in the air...but how high in the air is as already noted confusing....

Jack Knight was found at the plane. This differs from the experience of Al Hymers - http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,alhymers.html - who bailed out from LM213 on the Zeitz raid...and saw it sail off into the distance!! If Knight had bailed out or been blown from the a/c at around 10,000 feet would or could he have landed with the wreckage of the plane??? or does this indicate that, as the eye-witness reports state, that the a/c hit power lines or blew up at a low altitude...are they in fact correct? For me I am inclined to think so but I do not have a great knowledge of crashed ww2 bombers...so PLEASE set me straight if I am mistaken!!

Additionally, as you mentioned the bomb load.....to the best of my knowledge ALL of the bombs was recovered and defused.

Originally Posted by RodM

The Bf110 may have been the one flown by Fw. Lahmann, I don't know for sure because the identity of the pilot is not given in the Namenliche Verlustmeldung, so I'm going on the account provided in post # 8. The time of 2157 when a crash was witnessed by an RAF crew is within one minute of the time (2156) when Lahmann claimed an abschuss. An interesting possible connection, but rather meaningless considering all that is known is the time of Lahmann's claim (via the III./NJG1 Abschuesseliste at the BA/MA, Freiburg) and not the location.

The following details came from a historian of Thuringia via Ray Collins....it has some pertinence in the general scheme of the events of the night...

"Fw.Lahmann was seen engulfed on fire around 22.00 hrs. He came from North Bavaria into Thuringia region circling around and then two airmens was seen baling out, the pilot Lahmann and the R/O, the Gunner bale out but struck tailfin of the Me llo and fell to his death. crashplace is the HESSBERG nr.HILDBURGHAUSEN.

His Loss is corresponds with a claim from Lancastergunners of the Zeitzraiders."



thanks again guys,


Thor


ps. to put some faces to the crew...here is a pic. top -left to right - jack knight - dan conroy - des mcgonigle - jim mcdowell - jack armour - bottom - left to right - warren hart - laurie collins - bob beckett (my great uncle is Des McGonigle the pilot - top center - and Laurie Collins the wop - bottom center - is Ray's brother)