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Old 30th August 2005, 22:15
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

I am afraid there is a lot of misunderstanding, no doubt because it is a discussion about a discussion that took part elsewhere. If anybody is interested I may post both my replies (in Polish) but I am not sure if footnotes will be readable.
There are two general problems with Mr Emmerling's research.
The first point is that he does not understand what is in the Polish documents but knows better what the Polish pilots claimed.
The sample of Skalski is evident. Skalski in the combat of 2.09.1939 claimed two Do 17s and this is confirmed by diary of the unit and the daily report of the Pomorze Army Aviation. All the fuss is about a missing sentence, always added by Skalski, either I noticed a crash of the enemy aircraft or I did not notice a crash of the enemy aircraft. In his very detailed 1941 report Skalski described ultimate fate of his second victim and this caused libelling campaign of Mr Emmerling. He accused Skalski of deliberate lie in order to increase his personal score and cannot understand that his views are unsupported by original Polish documents. I just only asked in not very diplomatic, however clear way not to repeat those false accusations.
The second point is about the German research of Mr Emmerling.
Quite to contrary to his claims, Mr Emmerling does not provide extensive sources to his articles. No footnotes, no detailed information. A reader has no slightest idea if the author based his research on KTB of Flotte, KTB of Geschwader, diary of an airman, loss list, etc. It seems it is also the problem of Mr Emmerling. The best sample of how misleading such research is, is the case of Ju 87 losses on 4.09.1939. In his original article, Mr Emmerling based solely on his German sources (KTB of StG2 and a log book), claimed that the Germans lost 1 Ju 87 destroyed and 1 damaged in the battle over Poczałkowo. Polish documents clearly indicate, there were two battles and that one Ju 87 was destroyed in the first battle by Lachowicki-Czechowicz as confirmed by remains found on a crashsite, while the damage to another one must have occured in the second battle and description indicates it was Skalski the victor. Therefore it is obvious, the 'reliable and definite' (as Mr Emmerling claims) German sources are erroneous and not that complete. Despite that, Mr Emmerling accused another pilot of deliberate lie, namely Pniak. He has written that Pniak downed a Ju 87 because Mr Emmerling was unable to find any Do 17s in the German documents but at the same time he does not have even KTB of ZG1 that could have been involved! I do not mention the fact, Mr Emmerling claims that Pniak saw his victim crashing in the wood despite actual report states something completely different - I may post a scan of the report if anybody is able to read handwritten Polish.
Finally, there would be no comment on my side if Mr Emmerling had written, that according to the German documents losses on 2 and 4.09.193 were such and such. Unfortunatelly, he does not and continues with his offensive and ridiculous comments. Sometimes it looks the German pilots had a higher regard of Poles than Mr Emmerling himself.
Kjetil
You wrote.
Quote:
Your attempt to bait Andreas (and me) by saying that perhaps a Norwegian pilot made a deliberate false claim, is fruitless and a bit childlish. I have no problem accepting such an event if there is no corresponding German loss record, although I would first subscribe it to observational errors rather than a "liar, who invented the story just to cover up damage to his aircraft"! No doubt such things happened on all sides, but they need to be substantiated then.
I will write more: Norwegian pilots were top scorers in FC in 1943 but RAF claims are not too well reflected on the German loss lists. This means they were poorly trained and lied to improve their reputation. No wonder, they were coming from a ridiculous country, which collapsed so quickly, the Germans could not aim from their guns, and their [Norwegian] only effort were some war crimes.
How about that? I see you are taking it seriously. It is of course a nonsense but this is almost exactly what Mr Emmerling writes about Poland and the Polish aviators. What kind of reaction would you expect?

Last edited by Franek Grabowski; 31st August 2005 at 01:37.