Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski
In Spain on republican side, much often was counting as colective victories, but when you add all Soviet victoires which are established by Russian reasarcher S. Abrasov, he put individual list of all Soviet victory claims and after you will add them you will get about 210 v., as a not collective victories but individual.
Spain and Chalchyn-Gol is difficoult, because Soviet had claimed collective victories, not individual, plus very often overclaiming is very high.
Soviete fougth from X/XI 1936 up to X 1938 in Spain mostly on most hotes spots, plus side by side with Spain's pilots, so this is next problem with exacte figure of their all victories.
mw
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Not exactly
If you've got the S. Abrossov's book, read it carefully.
First, soviet homologation system changed several times throughout spanish war.
Secund, soviet personnal victories published by Abrossov are mainly uncomplete and issued from personnal pilot's personnal files and
not always directly from war diaries. There is clearly a missing link between them; and moreover victory lists could have been "arranged" for the Kremlin summer 1937 meeting with Alksnis. It's another source for soviet pilot's credits, but rather an optimistic one.
Third, a
certain overclaim is always natural in combat. I won't explain why, just try some aerobaics on a Yak, Zlin or Sukhoï in an aeroclub of yours and add to it, (rather imagine) the stess to be shooted down... In Spain overclaim was sometimes inflated by propaganda, then by multiple claims for the same damaged/destroyed plane between spaniards and russians, different Mosca/Chato squadrons, even between the same squadron/vic pilots ! On massive dogfights involving sometimes more than 50-100 planes from the both sides, nobody had really the time to follow falling planes.
Fourth, in Spain fought the most nimble planes of the whole aviation history: Fiats CR-32 (13,5s ToT), Heinkel 51 (12s), Chatos (8,5), Moscas (14,5). No mean to keep them classical "3 secunds" on the gunsight. All were rugged but underarmed, moreover unstable gun platform for soviet ones, and all of them could absorb a lot of punishment due to structural particularities. (Welded steel tubes, monocoque fuselages...).
A lot of planes were tremendously so called "salted" and "peppered" by bullets without conlusive results. Specially italian SM-79 that used to return the way back gliding on 1 or a one half of engine. Remember the 8th décember when full 28 Polikarpov fired 62 (!) thousand bullets at short distance (less than 50m in spain) on Ju-52's, shooting down only
one plane, a secund one suffering extensive damage.
At end without reliable and complete accounts for the franquist side difficult to estimate republican and moreover soviet overclaim. Except for soviet deliveries from Abrosov's book, the polemic about german, italian deliveries and franquist total losses is far from being dead and burried...
I would have from mysleft that's about to be closed for french deliveries too, the discrepancy's touching about 4-5 combat planes, has no significant meaning.
Regards
Regards