[Marius]

Franek,


I have provided evidence that your 'view' of III/4 activities is completely distorted.


Really? So were are the other destroyed German aircraft by III/4? Unit? Killed or wounded crew?


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About the German sources you can find many informations in my books...
No, I cannot. There are no footnotes and it is not clear what is in documents and what is your invention.


You will find the sources in appendixes (books, archives and other).


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I asked you to tell us what there is so decisive concerning the German aircraft losses and you did not respond. Right?
There is plenty but you deny it.


???
I do not deny anything. I mean for the discussion about III/4. More details please!


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That is not true. There is no missing sentence. 1939 in the original combat record Skalski stated that the second enemy aircraft flew away in formation what means Skalski could not bring it down. In 1941 this aircraft susprisingly crashed on the ground. We have here two different statements. German documents confirm the report written 1939.
No, it is clear problem with your head. Skalski in his report is reffering to ANOTHER formation but it seems it is too hard for you to understand that.
The report goes more less as follows:
In the Chełmża West-Unisław area I saw about eleven (11) bombing aircraft “DO17” being unable to warn section ldr I separated and attacked from the front and above firing few bursts from the distance of 200-50m, the e/a went down, I turned back after him firing few more bursts. The aircraft shuffled down and thumped on the ground. Next I took height again and attacked a second one from astern firing long burst I kept on tail until fire burst from the port wing, I followed him to 300m, [here is the missing sentence] next I started to gain height, to attack again but e/a in a vic of 5 flew in Bydgoszcz direction at a great speed. I gave up the chase and flew towards the front line in Łasin direction. Having met nothing over Łasin I flew to Grudziądz-Toruń. Behind Grudziądz I met a single Do17 and started to chase it, e/a started to gain height to 7000m and dropped into clouds, I gave up the chase and returned to the airfield alone. I note that own h.m.g. positions fired at me.


Franek, you are manipulating here an original combat report! The missing sentence is only in your phantasy. In the 1939 report and later in 1941 as well Skalski wrote about two separate aircraft he fought against. If he would attack a third which (reportet 1939) he couldn`t bring down so he would report it 1941 also. But he does not. The second attacked aircraft crashed on the ground due to 1941 report only.
And what makes you sure he fought with another formation?

Skalski was credited with two kills in September 1939, because somebody in the unit ment "fire burst from the port wing" is enough to credite the aircraft as personal kill for the pilot.

Surely, this aircraft may has been damaged, but there exist no evidence for another missing or force landed aircraft. In German RLM nobody would credite Skalski with two kills, because he had no witnesses.



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I said Skalski colorized his report written 1941.
And this should end up in a court.


?????
Do you mean this kind of intimidation is the basis for a serious discussion between two adult men interested in air war history?


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Yes, in my article I did not wrote about two battles, because in both (between 12:30 and 14:30 ?) participated III./StG 2 and III/4. But in my answer to you I did.
Based on what documents?


On German documents as Polish as well - published for example by J.B.Cynk.


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Nevertheless the German losses will remain the same: 1 Ju 87 totally destroyed and some more damaged. So what do you want? Should we speak about a battle (at appr. 12:30) where participated 3 PZL only?
I just want to prove the German documents are not so reliable.


Why not? I have seen and analyzed all here in our Bundesarchiv. There are only two documents which do not mention all action times of each squadron. III./StG 2 and I./ZG 76. Therefore they are a little bit inaccurate, because the squadrons operated not together (mostly). On the other hand there survived one thin book for each unit only. So you must take the log books of pilots and you can fill the time gaps again.


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Pniak saw his victims crash on 2.9. and 4.9. as well. German documents shaw evidently that these planes in fact did not crash.
Anybody else on this forum can read Polish? If so, I will post relevant scan of the 4.09 report just to prove Mr. Emmerling has no slightest idea what is he writing about.


?????
?????


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Yes the KTB of ZG 1 probably did not survive, but the German documentation was made on many stages (surfaces?).
The word you are looking for is level. The question remains, which level is most reliable.


The different levels (thanks for the word, I was not at home) complete one another very well.


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Concerning the total losses there is no lack of documentation despite of what many Polish historians wrote and now Franek is trying to tell us. As I wrote earlier I found the fate of almost all German planes lost 60-100% in September 1939. This means appr.290-295 of 303 (only the fate of some 10 Hs 126/He 46 remains a problem by now, but I am working on it).
And here we come to the key of the problem. Most of those aircraft are not identified by their WNr, so we cannot verify their ultimate fate, like with Hammes' aircraft. Also, all the damaged aircraft below 60% are not listed, and this leaves a large gap. Mr. Emmerling claims that Polish pilots colourised while claiming the German aircraft but he uses only total losses lists.

A damaged aircraft is not a destroyed aircraft. Polish pilots claimed also probables and damaged, right?
And you lie again Franek, because I wrote about all known damaged aircraft also, but not listed them separately together with 60-100%`s..


A Polish pilot who shot down a German aircraft that force landed in field and then was overrun by German troops, recovered and repaired, will be accused by Mr. Emmerling of lie.


?????
Why this? Such aircraft were posted as missing.



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Sorry, but I do not understand. It is clear that we are discussing about something based on German and Polish documents. So what are you writing about?
I mean that for example Victor Moelders expressed better opinion about Polish pilots rather than you.


Great! Long after the war he wrote something and right now you need it... What about other evidences?
I never expressed an opinion about Polish pilots. German documents did.


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No Franek, that is not true. Skalski later colorized, that is all. As I remember Polish pilots reported on 2.9. about 7 claims at all, all against I./ZG 1.
You remember - I know. That is the difference.

?????
What is this?


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In September 1939 there existed no confirmation system comparable to German (RLM) or others.
I am not awared of any such crazy bureaucratic system as created by RLM, which consumed time and money only to be as unreliable as the other ones.


...crazy bureaucratic system is better than confirmation by a "General" to rise the morale of losing army.


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Polish claims were first "investigated" and confirmed by the Bajan Commission 1945. It is ridicule when you are stating plk. Stachon did confirm the claims (in September 1939) made by Skalski. So may I ask you how he did? Saw he the German wrecks or what exactly was going on?
The problem is again you write about matters you have NO SLIGHTEST IDEA!!! There are several documents confirming that the pilots were credited with kills already in 1939. Bajan Commission was established to verify those claims but especially to convert them into RAF criteria adopted by the PAF. Concerning Stachoń's confirmation, I have a photocopy of the document and it is not my problem that you cannot believe it does exist.


So who exactly - what institution - credited Polish pilots with kills?
Oh, I truly believe that Stachons document exist. But for you this is the hard evidence for the wrecked German aircraft?!


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Even if General Eisenhower would confirm this claims, it would change nothing.
How about Ramses XIII?


Yes, why not.




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By the way, where did I wrote about Polish pilots as cowards and murderers? I repeatedly ask for that, because you are making false propaganda here on the forum. I can answer to this by myself: I did nowhere.
Really? How about those Polish pilots not willing to engage the German aircraft?


I`m sorry, but so mentioned in many German documents. By the way, a simple human reaction.



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But a Polish historians told me before some time that after the battle kpt. Kowalczyk (commanding IV/1) was very angry and disappointed about what his pilots did.
Who? Apparently either he was not clear or you had misunderstood him. After the repeated German attacks on bailing out airmen, on 4.09 Brygada Pościgowa's command issued an order not to attack Germans in the revenge. It happenned during the battle over Koło two days later, that one of the pilots hit a German airman with his wing. It is not clear if it was intentional or not but I would say such an intentional attack could have been quite risky. Anyway, Kowalczyk reputedly did a speech but only evidence of it was an account of a man who was a young boy (12 or 14 I think) present on the airfield at the time and as such must be taken with a grain of salt.


Sorry, but this man is frightened by people like you. Perhaps you will ask J.B.Cynk? He is an authority and should know about these things.



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I don`t know what Skalski did later in the war. We are discussing here about the beginning of it, first combats and losses... Skalski`s kills in Poland can be verified and I have done it. I`m very sorry that there is no confirmation for his several kills.
Skalski claimed four individual and one shared kill, with an another shared being rejected. Another aircraft was claimed shared damaged by him. Of those kills you cannot confirm one aircraft destroyed on 2.09 and one damaged on 4.09. His kills during the BoB seems to be fully confirmed by the German losses, problems starting after the Battle, due to serious losses of the German documents.


Please give the exactly date for each claim in September 1939.



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The quality of your photo may be poor. I have one where you can see the wet ground (more darkened earth) under the wing and fuselage. I think due to water or something like that.
Quality is excellent, much better than in your books. No slightest trace of fire.


So surely you have a different photo.


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This is much too less. You must have some trace of an aircraft wreck or the name of a wounded or downed pilot or something else. Just a simple claim in Polish documents is not enough.
Why? If a Polish pilot claims that a German airman baled out, I see no reason not to believe him. I have a document from RAF FC confirming a kill based on fact that there was a parachute seen on the guncam film, but the German action report states there were no losses. Sorry, I would rather trust camera evidence than your documents.


Again you write about the German Bordfunker of Muehlenheim-Rehberg: Hans Weng. For what?


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By the way, German documents as for example of Fliegerdivision 1 are reporting about the lost Bf 110 and a further slightly wounded Bordfunker. Do you mean German documents would report about something less important as slightly wounded aircrew and nothing more about other missing aircraft or even wounded or killed pilots?
Can you assure me the German documents are complete? Sorry, you cannot. I have seen plenty of multi level documents and I know their marigin of error.


We have to discuss about what we have and not about fata morgana.



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Perhaps they looked "untouched", but we know they were shot down and the damage was considerable even if not to see on the photos. I am sure they were treated as total losses.
Please provide a document stating that the aircraft was written off! I am not interested in your beliefs.


Yes, of course. Even in OKL lists they are posted as shot down on enemy territory or lost 100%.

Marius