[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Marius

Really? So were are the other destroyed German aircraft by III/4? Unit? Killed or wounded crew?

What the German aircraft have to the Polish ones?

You will find the sources in appendixes (books, archives and other).

Nope, neither book nor articles are footnoted.

???
I do not deny anything. I mean for the discussion about III/4. More details please!

Skalski's combat on 4.09 for example. He claimed a Do 17 damaged. No comment on your side at all - you just have not found it.

Franek, you are manipulating here an original combat report!

I am not manipulating it! It is translated word by word.

The missing sentence is only in your phantasy.

So Mr know better, please explain me, why such sentences are in the every other Skalski's report?

In the 1939 report and later in 1941 as well Skalski wrote about two separate aircraft he fought against. If he would attack a third which (reportet 1939) he couldn`t bring down so he would report it 1941 also. But he does not. The second attacked aircraft crashed on the ground due to 1941 report only.

He did not attack a third one!

And what makes you sure he fought with another formation?

Apart of later accounts, 11-2=9 and it is not 5. First class of math in a basic school I think.

Skalski was credited with two kills in September 1939, because somebody in the unit ment "fire burst from the port wing" is enough to credite the aircraft as personal kill for the pilot.

Provide a supporting document for your thesis. Apparently it was not enough as Skalski was initially not credited with a Do 17 on 4.09.

Surely, this aircraft may has been damaged, but there exist no evidence for another missing or force landed aircraft. In German RLM nobody would credite Skalski with two kills, because he had no witnesses.

RLM credited German pilots with far too many kills. That is the one thing. Another is that as yet you cannot prove anything in either way.

?????
Do you mean this kind of intimidation is the basis for a serious discussion between two adult men interested in air war history?

I mean it goes outside of the scope of historical research and is a serious accusation.

On German documents as Polish as well - published for example by J.B.Cynk.

So you agree that the German documents are not complete and must be supplemented by the Polish ones.

Why not? I have seen and analyzed all here in our Bundesarchiv. There are only two documents which do not mention all action times of each squadron. III./StG 2 and I./ZG 76. Therefore they are a little bit inaccurate, because the squadrons operated not together (mostly). On the other hand there survived one thin book for each unit only. So you must take the log books of pilots and you can fill the time gaps again.

And how can you verify times given in KTBs?

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?????

Yup. You have no slightest idea, what has been written in Pniak's report.

The different levels (thanks for the word, I was not at home) complete one another very well.

Really? What level of documents do you have?

A damaged aircraft is not a destroyed aircraft. Polish pilots claimed also probables and damaged, right?

Not in 1939, those claims were ammended at a later date. Otherwise a damaged or probably destroyed aircraft is still an aerial victory. Especially if force landed.

And you lie again Franek, because I wrote about all known damaged aircraft also, but not listed them separately together with 60-100%`s..

Your list of damaged aircraft is far from complete.

?????
Why this? Such aircraft were posted as missing.

Would you scrap a slightly damaged aircraft worth of some thousands of RM???

Great! Long after the war he wrote something and right now you need it... What about other evidences?

So you claim that Moelders lied?

I never expressed an opinion about Polish pilots. German documents did.

German documents do not mention the fact radial engines of PZLs had over 300 hrs of flight time each for example.

?????
What is this?

This is a difference. I know that Poles claimed 7 Do 17, you just guess it. I do not know what were the units they fought against but you guess it.

...crazy bureaucratic system is better than confirmation by a "General" to rise the morale of losing army.

This bureaucratic system was as inaccurate as the one of losing army.

So who exactly - what institution - credited Polish pilots with kills?

When?

Oh, I truly believe that Stachons document exist. But for you this is the hard evidence for the wrecked German aircraft?!

I do not need any German aircraft here. The question was, with how many aircraft Skalski was credited in 1939.

I`m sorry, but so mentioned in many German documents. By the way, a simple human reaction.

Interesting, as there were exactly the same comments on the Polish side in regard of the Germans.

Sorry, but this man is frightened by people like you. Perhaps you will ask J.B.Cynk? He is an authority and should know about these things.

I will. But I do not expect any knowledge on things that never happenned.

Please give the exactly date for each claim in September 1939.

Why, you have them in Cynk's book?

So surely you have a different photo.

Different one of the same aircraft.

Again you write about the German Bordfunker of Muehlenheim-Rehberg: Hans Weng. For what?

So again you claim Leśniewski and Skalski shot at the same aircraft. Sorry, discussion with you is nonsense if you cannot understand what is in the Polish reports.

We have to discuss about what we have and not about fata morgana.

We have to be critical towards any evidence.

Yes, of course. Even in OKL lists they are posted as shot down on enemy territory or lost 100%.

This does not mean the aircraft was not recategorised, repaired and returned to the service.