[Marius]

Franek,


Quote:
Nobody says German airmen are innocent. And this is the question of the thread: when German aircrews bombed a purely civilian target for the first time and where?
[Go on. Wieluń 1.09.1939, Warsaw 1.09.1939 and on.]


Wielun - the target was a cavalry brigade,
Warsaw - Okecie airport, Goclaw airport, Rembertow ammunition camp, staff of Polish High Command (LG 1 and KG 27).


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Who estimated this 75%?
1200 persons... compare other bombing attacks - for example the night bombing raids by RAF bombers - and how many tons of bombs were dropped. For example in Rotterdam appr. 100 tons killed 600 - 900 people.
[The bombing was researched by a Main Commission of Research of Hitlerite Crimes in Poland. Their files are currently at IPN, so you may get an access there. Also, as you noted, Rotterdam was in the combat zone. Wieluń was not and the people were surprised.]


In what year was it researched by the commission?
The only truth is that in the morning people were surprised, surely. But Wielun was reached by German troops day later, on 2 September, so of course the city was in the combat zone. Only appr. 30 km`s away from the Polish-German border.


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Also in Dresden 1945 the streets were strafed by US fighters, but until day nobody could bring the evidence for the story.
[Because no streets at Dresden were straffed. It was the roads around Dresden.]

No, I don`t mean strafing on roads outside the cities. In Dresden many people were fleeing to the meadows at the river and according to some of them, later the day (as USAAF B-17`s attacked) there appeared US fighters and strafed them.
I repeat, until now no evidence for that.


Quote:
I mean ca. 20 tons dropped by I./StG 76 and ca. 10 tons by I./StG 77. The first attack (I./StG 76) was at ca. 5.30 hours, the second (I./StG 77) at ca. 6.05 - 6.10 hours.
Look to the war diaries of both units.
[Three attacks starting 4:40, then three raids at about 7:00, 10:00 and 14:00.]

Starting 4.40..., great! As I mentioned earlier look to the German war diaries. I./StG 76 started at 5.02 hours, so it couldn`t had bombed Wielun at 4.40. It is nonsensless.
But I see the mistake, done by many "historians" and journalists. At appr. 4.40 I./StG 1 bombed the targets at the bridge of Dirschau (Tczew). But this is a whole another story.
So if you are sure of attacks at 7.00 and 10.00 hours, please tell us what German units bombed the city.

I can tell you the following according to German documents. The reconnaissance Do 17 aircrews detected following Polish troops:
- Wood area 12 km south-east of Wielun
(bombed by I./StG 2 at appr. 14.00 hours)
- Wood area 5 km north-east of Wielun
(bombed by I./StG 76 at appr. 14.00 hours)
- 15 km east of Wielun and area Krzeczow-Mokra-Chorzyna-Walkow
(bombed by I./KG 77 at appr. 15.40 hours)

See war diaries of all three units. There was no bombing at 7.00 or 10.00 hours.



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Fact? Fact is they did not. At first on 25th September Luftwaffe started bombing of Warsaw which also caused considerable damage to civilian districts. All earlier attacks were made against purely military targets.
[BS. Already on 1 September purely civilian districts of Koło and Rakowiec were hit. Villages surrounding Warsaw were bombed on 3 September. On the very next day civilian districts of Praga and Grochów were badly hit. 5 September - main railway station filled with civilian evacuees was hit (remember Dresden?). All this well before combat zone moved to Warsaw.]


All this collateral damage to bombs dropped on military targets.


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And don`t forget Warsaw was declared as a "fortress". Fact is it was a battle zone since 8th September as first German tanks tried to come in.
[See above. Bombing of civilan targets happenned before that date. Of course you will explain that those were military targets - those people could carry weapons.]

Yes, only military targets. But indeed the bombs killed civilians also. There is no war you could avoid civilian victims. Look to Iraq, where US used high technologies and nevertheless killed civilians without intention.


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Many silly things were published in Germany. Compare the stories written by Jochen Trenkner about Wielun. Many nonsenses and lies and manipulations as well.
[Yes, your research is a perfect example. If you cannot find anything in your documents it is a clear proof that it never happenned.]

The problem is you can find many things in documents which are contradicted to your "very easy made" statements. You will not solve the problem with existing documents by just closing your eyes.


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What is the evidence Frampol was a practice target?
[Find the original article on the subject, it should be not a problem for you.]

Just a simple article? Much too less. Look to the articles of Mr. Trenkner. He wrote I./StG 76 started at 4.02 hours and that he saw it in the German documents (!!!). But in the German documents you will find 5.02 hours, I proved these documents. How will you explain this manipulation done by the author?


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5th column and diversion groups, not bad. Do you really believe this?
[I do not need to. It was proven by a German researcher that eg. German diversion groups were engaged in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg attacks and he was even able to find their names. September 23rd, 2005 02:31 PM]

Oh, very interesting. What is the name of the researcher?


I am looking for hard facts, for the intention of such bombing attacks and not for collateral victims, people who were killed by a accidents or due to some single "crazy" aircrews shooting at people working in the field. These are individual cases only, not the general behaviour of all aircrews.

Marius