[Marius]

Franek,
we are discussing about intended bombing of civilian targets, not about holocaust or 5th column activities. Please stay at the topic and don`t lump all together. It would make the discussion very difficult.

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Wielun - the target was a cavalry brigade,
Warsaw - Okecie airport, Goclaw airport, Rembertow ammunition camp, staff of Polish High Command (LG 1 and KG 27).
[Oh, we know that. See below. And check the latest issue of Lotnictwo.]


Sorry, but I don`t have the latest issue of Lotnictwo. What for?



Quote:
In what year was it researched by the commission?
[Commission was established just post-war and continued their research up until 1990s. I cannot say when in particular this investigation took place but I suppose it was just post-war. Anyway, in the late 1970s documents were handed over to Germany with request of legal action against people responsible for the attack. Germany refused any investigation twice, in 1978 and 1983. It was a quite common decision of German justice, they were doing such a job only when directly forced to do so. Many criminals escaped any responsibility because of that.]


So you agree the investigation was made long after the war with the intention to declare the attack on Wielun was a "war crime". But why didn`t it happen earlier, for example in Nuremberg?
And how did the investigators count the persons killed on 1 September?

Indeed later there was an investigation against Hptm. Sigel (commanding in Poland I./StG 76), but it brought nothing. And it is clear why not. Despite of many killed persons in Wielun this "war crime" is only made in Poland.
The decisive thing is the following: the bombing was done without the intention to kill civilians. The target was much clear, a Polish "cavalry unit". Surely with the silent acceptance (or certainty) there also would die civilian people. But for every military rank it will always be more important to beat the enemy troops and win the war than to take into consideration the lives of civilians.




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The only truth is that in the morning people were surprised, surely. But Wielun was reached by German troops day later, on 2 September, so of course the city was in the combat zone. Only appr. 30 km`s away from the Polish-German border.
[So, it could have been bombed because it was too close to the border?]


No, because there were many Polish troops marching through it at the last days of August. Even cavalry units. Wielun was important traffic junction. Therefore the German high commands could expect many Polish troops massed there in the city also on 1 September.




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Starting 4.40..., great! As I mentioned earlier look to the German war diaries. I./StG 76 started at 5.02 hours, so it couldn`t had bombed Wielun at 4.40. It is nonsensless.
But I see the mistake, done by many "historians" and journalists. At appr. 4.40 I./StG 1 bombed the targets at the bridge of Dirschau (Tczew). But this is a whole another story.
[Nope, this was not related to Tczew bridge bombing. Why an assumption the time in the KTB is correct? The time of the bombing was certainly established before 1975, I suppose it comes from Polish sources.]


The time in the German KTB is right. For example you can compare the starts of reconnaissance Do 17 of the Stuka units. The first 2 Do 17 started at 4.50 and 5.02 respectively.
Also the escorting Bf 109`s of 3./ZG 2 (escort for I./StG 76) started at 4.57.
Mr. Trenkner clearly manipulated his articles about Wielun.


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So if you are sure of attacks at 7.00 and 10.00 hours, please tell us what German units bombed the city.
[It is you, who is researching the Luftwaffe. Do you think someone invented the bombing? What for?]


I think these are inaccuracies in Polish researching which was only based on Polish witness reports. Nobody looked to the German documents at that time because this was dishonourable.



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I can tell you the following according to German documents. The reconnaissance Do 17 aircrews detected following Polish troops:
- Wood area 12 km south-east of Wielun
(bombed by I./StG 2 at appr. 14.00 hours)
- Wood area 5 km north-east of Wielun
(bombed by I./StG 76 at appr. 14.00 hours)
- 15 km east of Wielun and area Krzeczow-Mokra-Chorzyna-Walkow
(bombed by I./KG 77 at appr. 15.40 hours)
[So they were unable to hit their objectives? It just spot on recalls the case described in the last Lotnictwo. Targets of any military value were at outskirts of a city, nonetheless centre of the city was wiped out.]


Sorry? It shows to us that in fact many Polish troops were in the area of Wielun, perhaps even in the city itself in the morning. Can you refute this?
And the centre of the city was wiped out in the morning attack, not later. Why somebody should bomb the destroyed centre of the city for 5 times?




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All this collateral damage to bombs dropped on military targets.
[Yes, I expected you will explain it this way. Please explain what military targets were at Koło and Rakowiec area?]


Perhaps some bombs fell on a civilian house or elsewhere, but it wasn`t intended. And that is the point. Nobody says it did not happen, but it was not intended.



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Yes, only military targets. But indeed the bombs killed civilians also. There is no war you could avoid civilian victims. Look to Iraq, where US used high technologies and nevertheless killed civilians without intention.
[Those 'errors' happenned just too often. Intention of Luftwaffe was clear - by bombing and straffing civilian targets, they wanted to cause panic and to block any movements. Of course, at the time such attacks would be considered war crimes. Have not you heard about unwritten orders???]


Unwritten orders? In bureaucratic German Army?

You mean the intention of the Luftwaffe was clear?! Where is the evidence? A document? Or even the name of your bombed purely civilian target?




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The problem is you can find many things in documents which are contradicted to your "very easy made" statements. You will not solve the problem with existing documents by just closing your eyes.
[I am not closing my eyes. Just to the contrary, it is you, who deny anything recorded in Polish documents that is not 'confirmed' by your papers.]


What Polish documents do you mean, Franek?
So if a Polish journalist or historian is writing about killed civilians and that this was a "war crime" done by the Luftwaffe you are uncritically accepting this point of view? What about other points of view? Not acceptable for you even when without logic? Is the Polish point of view the only one?
Let`s better speak the documents.



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Just a simple article? Much too less. Look to the articles of Mr. Trenkner. He wrote I./StG 76 started at 4.02 hours and that he saw it in the German documents (!!!). But in the German documents you will find 5.02 hours, I proved these documents. How will you explain this manipulation done by the author?
[There are two possibilities. Either he saw a different document or he did a simple typo.]


There is no different document and not a simple typo. I show you that there is a third possibility, even if you won`t accept this one.
I think there was the intention to place this "war crime" before the official attack on Poland at 4.45 on 1 September 1939. It should have happen on "4.40", therefore before 4.45, and get the weight of an especially brutal German crime. If someone would later ask for example for other done "war crimes" on Germans, everybody outside Germany could say - you Germans did it in Wielun before the war even started, so shut up.
This third possibility is very sad one, but to my opinion also mostly likely. A very simple definition to what Germans did and therefore what they earned.

Marius