[Franek Grabowski]

Marius

as I see our Polish contingent is not very helpful. And apparently a serious argumentation based on serious documents is not needed. They just "know it better".

Because Polish documents and Polish accounts are not serious, we cannot provide you with anything serious.
I suppose you will find those incidents mentioned in Polish sources either military targets or Polish fiction. Really, not my problem.

Some samples of attacks on civilian targets in Warsaw.
10.09 - collumns of escaping civilians as well as women collecting potatos along grochowska road were straffed by German aircraft flying at about 100m height.
13.09 - bomb attacks started since 17.00 and targetted mainly Jewish district and Żoliborz, all of them purely civilian. It was noted that when radio announced that homeless people are gathered at circus arena (about 1000), it became a target for German fire. The same with buildings marked with the red cross.
17.09 - on sunday, at the time of holly masses, Warsaw churches were fired at, inflicting serious casualties.

Purely military targets I think.

Do you like to play cat and mouse? I thought you are talking about something what you can prove, what you have at hand. But apparently you don`t.

I am not going to do research instead of you. You have been shown either with direct sources or places where they are and it is just only your problem to get them.

As you should know Germany was divided into West and East. In East Germany were acting authors and journalists who had to keep one`s (visible) distance from the III Reich period and the bad things done by Hitler and his fellows. The true (East) Germany was changed. Russia was than (officially) the best friend.
So if you are talking about German press of 1960s perhaps you could specify it? Published in East or West? Who was the author of the article? Where shall I look for it?

Usually it is linked to Wolfgang Schreyer (East) but I think those photos were published in the West. In anyway, it is not my problem. It is so well known, I am surprised, that you have not heard about it before. This confirms my opinion about you as a sloppy researcher.

And one more thing Franek. Nobody denies here holocaust or other German war crimes (were it is obvious). Your attempt to turn away from the crux of this discussion will not be succesful.

I have an exactly opposite impression.

But when you are talking about German war crimes you have also to talk about war crimes done for example by Polish butchers. You are writing Germans did many bad things. And you are surely right, nobody is denying this. But how many bad things did Poles in September 1939 already? You cannot compare these things because all the world is focussed on the German war crimes only. You are doing the same (for example your comments concerning Bromberg are very onesided - of course Germans were guilt, for you there is no other possibility. But nevertheless Bromberg is not the only one place where Poles killed German civilians, right?).

Oh yes, a counterattack. Polish butchers. Goebbels mentioned them quite often I think.
The fact is that perhaps war crimes happenned on the Polish side but they were neither ordered nor general policy. Case of Bromberg is a very clear one and investigated in great detail. Indeed German civilians were shot, but they were armed. And how about Fischer von Mollard who bombed (with handgrenades) civilians with his privately owned Polish registered Moth? Perhaps a Polish crime as well?

In one more point you are right. Hitler started the war and then happenend many bad things, many civilians were killed. But this fact isn`t giving you the right to make Germans also responsible for war crimes done by others.

Who are the others? Martians?

Franek, I cannot kill my German neighbour, because a German killed my wife. In such a case I am making myself to a murderer what has to be punished in a court.

And that was the reason of Nuremberg.

Don`t forget we are searching here for a hard proof of intended bombing of civilian targets. How the civilians itself saw the falling bombs and what they feeled shouldn`t be the decisive factor to make such easy statements that by bombing targets only the killing of civilians was intended.
You cannot demonstate German intention only showing graves of killed civilians, photos of destroyed places or simply onesided afterwar propaganda.

If such things are not incidental but indicating a general policy, I do not need orders to draw conclusions. And if an military target excuse is used, then it is clear for me, that the people knew, they are doing a bad thing. It fits perfectly into a quote of pre-war Hitler's speech. Something about no-mercy, do you remember it?

Maybe there were no Polish troops in Frampol on the 13th or in Wielun on the 1th. But nevertheless how can you deny that Luftwaffe crews wanted to hit Polish troops? If they in fact only hit civilians I would call it a mistake, not wanted. You call it a "war crime" and you have absolutely no problem doing this. You mean the intention is not needed (or you assume it is automatically existing) and here you are completely wrong.

No, I have absolutely no problem. Comparison of Wieluń and Coventry is just striking, especially in view of conclusions drawn by the British. I am not mistaken and the world was not mistaken condemning Germany for their crimes. You may cry, it is winners' point of view, but I do not care about it.

I repeat - you asked about civilian targets and you got the replies. You have not asked about justification of those raids.
If you want to read more about German crimes, follow this link and contact the people. I am afraid, however, that your only intention is to make a fuss and not to find the truth.

http://www.dhi.waw.pl/de/aktualnosci...php?nr_art=101