[Don Caldwell]

John --

I see very little long term value in this thread, but that's a matter of opinion. Many of the participants seem to treat their very serious subject as a game, which can lower the overall reputation of the forum, but again, that's my opinion. I hate to pass threads by, as I hope to either learn from or contribute to any of them, but that's impossible with this particular one.

Rob –

You’re the person who started this thread and pops in from time to time to stir things up, so yes, I was talking about you. Your reply to John was so totally illogical that it’s obvious (to me) that you still lack a fundamental understanding of why and how victory claims were recorded and confirmed, despite repeated attempts by our more patient members to educate you. (Preddy should have been given a victory credit for an aircraft that was scrapped after returning to base damaged? By whom, for heaven’s sake, and using what data? And just as important, why?) Most people who contribute data to this forum have either made a good faith effort to verify it or have come across something they don’t understand and are asking others for their help. I’ve made much use of the data I’ve found here. However, your table of overclaimers is of zero historical value. It is nearly all allegation and rumor and will never be used in a legitimate publication. Questions on the sources of your data have to the best of my knowledge gone unanswered. Furthermore, despite your addition of the word “alleged”, your charges are insulting to the memories of the deceased, who are not in a position to defend themselves. Preparation of your table can’t be considered an innocent hobby like trainspotting, because it results in calling men who were normal products of their time “liars” and “untruthful”. Overclaim ratios differed in different air forces, theaters, time periods, and units, and calling a pilot “untruthful” whose claims were found acceptable in his Staffel or squadron is grossly unfair.
Several of us have pointed out that the entire subject of victory claims and their veracity was of relatively little importance during WWII, as hard as that may be to believe today. "100% accuracy" was unattainable and unneeded. Aerial victories were important for the morale of aggressive, ambitious young fighter pilots and the home front, but they in no way helped determine the winner of the war, and are of secondary importance to historians, who consider losses, not claims, "real" data. Overclaiming was often handled by higher commands in a surprisingly sophisticated manner. My best example is the comparision of JG 2 with JG 26 from the BoB to D-Day. JG 2’s confirmed claims always exceeded those of JG 26, even though it was kept to the west of JG 26, out of the major route of both the RAF in 1941-42 and the USAAF in 1943-44, and had fewer engagements and opportunities to score. Why was JG 26 given the prize position in the theater and not JG 2? Berlin had to have known the truth about the victories being obtained by the two unts – and Göring came close to telling JG 26 exactly that, if the JG 26 veterans can be believed. Overclaiming in WWII did result in bad strategic decisions in a few cases – e.g., by the Luftwaffe in the BoB and the IJN in the Marianas – but for the most part was kept under control by verification procedures, (yes) gun cameras, and review boards.
The quality of victory claim records was typical of that of all WWII mililtary records. Ask anyone who has spent any time researching primary records in the archives of any of the combatants. Errors are rampant among the reams of reports that were generated on every base, every day, and since victory documents were not handled by a special team of “ace” clerks, any statement of how a claim “should have” been handled is naïve.
Finally, this thread is indeed active, and since it’s “clean” – no slander of participants is allowed – that’s an adequate reason not to delete it. But most of the contributions can be summarized as, “Hey, let’s see which dead guy we can call a liar today”, which I find sad.

Don Caldwell