[HGabor]

Alfred26,

Good point! On October 23, 1944 the soviet 5 VA lost 4 IL-2s to fighters indeed. So all claims reliable that day! 5 VA, 131 GvShAP lost 3 IL-2s, (S/N: 10620, 302820, 1873563), the 132 GvShAP lost one (S/N: 18753100). Since the 3rd 131 GvShAP IL-2 (S/N: 1873563) returned -and broke- on its base, it was either Düttmann's or Stein's victory, as Lipfert's both victims (S/N: 10620 and 302820) crashed in the battle area for 100%. (1st exploded, 2nd lost its tail.) So the 3rd returned and was a write-off, but the gunner was missing! They found traces of blood in his seat. He either fell, or jumped out from the plane during the mission. The plane returned only with the pilot. Originally it was only damaged during the fight, but finished-off on the base. It was a write-off, probably used for parts later. It is interesting, that the 131 GvShAP lost an IL-2 from all 3 main IL-2 factories this day:

1xxxx from Factory No.1 at Kuybishev,
18xxxxx from Factory No.18 also at Kuybishev and
30xxxx from Factory No.30 in Moscow.

On October 27, 1944 the airfield of Debrecen was strafed by about 6 Fw 190s and 8 Bf 109s. As a result a Yak-1B and a Yak-9M fighter of the 5 VA, 513 IAP was destroyed, 7 Po-2 biplanes of 930 NBAP, 2 IL-2s of 451 ShAP and another 3 unidentified planes of the 18 TAP were damaged. Several people died or wounded as well. A La-5FN and a Yak-3 was lost during the missions as well as probably two 207 OKRAP IL-2KRs. No details on their mission, only personnel losses, so I do not know. Note that the 207 OKRAP lost 4 airmen this day. Since it was a mixed Recce. regiment, flying IL-2KR and Yak-9 Recce. planes too, these losses could be 2 IL-2s -OR- one IL-2 and two Yak-9s! As I have no plane data for 207 OKRAP for this day, anything is possible. Maybe a single IL-2 loss as 'yours' plus 2 Yaks for other German claims. I have no idea. No other known permanent 5 VA IL-2 loss this day anyway.

See, the soviet papers are tricky. Mechanical papers reveal plane info without crew names. Personnel papers give crew data without plane info. Regiment journals give a bit from each. So in order to get a full view, you need to see a whole arsenal of documents, as opposed to the American MACRs where practically everything is together for the case. Soviet research is like a puzzle. Very interesting, but takes lots of time and patience.

Cheers,

Gabor