[HGabor]

Thank you. Where I said OK or WIA, the pilots survived the battle and in most cases they returned to their unit (or were sent to hospital) the very same day, or in the next few days. Fate of their aircraft could be different: complete crash or just belly landing, but either way: it was erased from soviet AC inventory as a combat loss. (Write-off, so the victory credit is correct.)

For “real victory, but unsure which one,- too many options” I mean the claim is correct for 99%, as soviet planes were lost in the given time and area according to the claim. But if 3 planes crashed in the same battle in a small area, I cannot select the one mentioned in somebody's claim. Same, if the planes were shot out in the reported time and area, but they actually crashed somewhere else at a remote location... I cannot tell which victim received the bullets from this specific pilot.

Let's pick an example. What September 27, 1944 (the 'Kassel-mission') was for the Liberators of the 8. USAAF, 445 BG, - January 4, 1945 was the same for the IL-2s of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. This day in the battles around Bajna, Hungary - they lost 7 IL-2s in dogfights and one additional to AAA. These 8 lost planes (S/N: 10967, 10987, 11425, 12052, 12054, 304836, 1888603, 18704106 and 18853106) were about one third of the regiment at that time! (The 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP lost another two IL-2s in dogfight in the same area: S/N: 10430 and 11413, while the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP lost one (S/N: 11511) to AAA and S/N: 11536 probably to fighters. 17 VA, 189 and 306 divisions also lost IL-2s, mainly to AAA, few to fighters.) The battle area exactly matches Lipfert's 169th and 170th claim. Since I am not aware of more than 9-10 IL-2 claims for the day in the area, I would say that Lipfert's claims are honest and true. But because of the too many options, I cannot tell which planes and crews. Some actually crashed en route to their home base, so it would be even more difficult to match the actual opponent(s).

Barkhorn’s claims “No.277-278-279: three IL-2s on November 16, 1944” - Some lists say he claimed 3 IL-2s this day. Some say only fighters. Fighters match clearly, but the 92nd GvShAP lost 5 IL-2s in dogfight. Again, Tony Wood's list mentions only 4 German IL-2 claims this day over Hungary, but there was a 5th IL-2 loss in dogfight as well! If Barkhorn claimed IL-2 this day, I would say there is a good chance that at least one was his. (No proof, though.)

So far I found Lipfert's claims the most precise. Barkhorn's list was also good and fair. But Hartmann's list was less than poor. I am not convinced that Hartmann (IN REAL) was even among the 10 best German fighter pilots in WWII!!! I have absolutely no explanation why he was chosen to be the Star of the Luftwaffe. I know these are strong words, but based on his average in Hungary in 1944, compared to soviet records, only 1/3 of his claims looks real victory (destroyed, or written-off) and 2/3 just fantasy... (Sorry, to be correct: max. damaged, but not destroyed)

Certainly I am not a judge here and everybody is most welcome to prove the opposite. But I think in the future more legends will be changed/adjusted/-you name it-, and more publications will reveal the truth. Basically: this is the main purpose of this forum too.

Gabor