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Old 9th February 2014, 16:10
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Gabor, you state:

Quote:
“But if 3 planes crashed in the same battle in a small area, I cannot select the one mentioned in somebody's claim. Same, if the planes were shot out in the reported time and area, but they actually crashed somewhere else at a remote location... I cannot tell which victim received the bullets from this specific pilot.
Let's pick an example. What September 27, 1944 (the 'Kassel-mission') was for the Liberators of the 8. USAAF, 445 BG, - January 4, 1945 was the same for the IL-2s of the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP. This day in the battles around Bajna, Hungary - they lost 7 IL-2s in dogfights and one additional to AAA. These 8 lost planes (S/N: 10967, 10987, 11425, 12052, 12054, 304836, 1888603, 18704106 and 18853106) were about one third of the regiment at that time! (The 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP lost another two IL-2s in dogfight in the same area: S/N: 10430 and 11413, while the 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP lost one (S/N: 11511) to AAA and S/N: 11536 probably to fighters. 17 VA, 189 and 306 divisions also lost IL-2s, mainly to AAA, few to fighters.) The battle area exactly matches Lipfert's 169th and 170th claim. Since I am not aware of more than 9-10 IL-2 claims for the day in the area, I would say that Lipfert's claims are honest and true. But because of the too many options, I cannot tell which planes and crews. Some actually crashed en route to their home base, so it would be even more difficult to match the actual opponent(s).”
If it’s not too much trouble, may I make the following suggested summary of LOSSES vs. CLAIMS to help historians asses the probability of a claim being valid (i.e., 75% or 56%).

Re 27 Sep 44 Mission Il-2 Losses/Claims:
Losses: 9 Plus to fighters + 2 Plus to AAA Vs. 9-10 German Claims = Almost certain victory –unable to match claims to exact victim”

Here are several hypothetical postings (This is not for 27 Sep 44 Mission!):
7 Plus to fighters + 3 Plus to AAA = 6 German Claims + 2 Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims
7 Plus to fighters + 3 to AAA = 6 German Claims + 0 Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims
7 to fighters + 3 Plus to AAA = 6 German Claims + No known Hungarian Claims + 2 AAA Claims

Once again Gabor, many thanks.

Last edited by Rob Romero; 9th February 2014 at 19:48.
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