[Mark Steinitz]

Thanks to Dave Williams for citing Planquadrat 81447 from Gerhard Thyben's own victory list as the location of his Jak-9 victory of June 29, 1944. I have what appears to be the same list, except I got it more recently from Thyben's son. The list in my possession also states that Thyben's Jak-9 victory claim from 29 June 1944 occurred at 81447.

I should have checked it earlier when Planquadrat expert Andreas Brekken suggested to me that the Planquadrat for the Thyben Jak-9 victory, as cited in Tony Wood's Loss List (21447), was likely incorrect. As noted in one of my previous messages on this thread, Andreas told me that perhaps the victory had been scored at 91447 since 21447 was nowhere close to Vyborg. Armed with the new information from David Williams, I went back to Andreas Brekken to see which location was closer to Vyborg: Thyben's Jak-9 victory as recorded in his personal list at 81447 or Lt. Seevers' Jak-9 victory of the same morning at 81352 (from Tony Wood). Seevers is the only other known German who qualifies as Zelenov's victor.

Andreas once again generously shared his knowledge with me, and I am passing it on to readers of 12OCH. Below is the text of his email to me, which includes two attached maps. I hope readers will be able to open them because they are quite illustrative. As you will see, Andreas places Thyben's victory (assuming it took place at 81447) as being closer to Vyborg than Seever's claim. (This is the same conclusion Andreas reached when he speculated that Thyben's win took place at 91447). Andreas also points out (once again) that while Thyben's victory is closer to Vyborg, Seever's is still in the same general area.

My own opinion remains that if Zelenov was shot down by a German and not a Finn, then Thyben is the more likely German victor. Still,it is difficult to have a high level of confidence in this probability with the evidence at hand. If we could establish when Zelenov was shot down, it might help. On Tony Wood's list, Thyben's Jak-9 score is recorded at 0703 (0702 on Thyben's own list), while Seevers' Jak-9 went down at 0810, according to Tony Wood. As before comments and new evidence or analysis are welcome. Here is Andreas' e-mail with maps.

"Hi, Mark.

Sorry for my long absence, but I have been on vacation with no internet for about a week.

I have attached two maps, which show the CENTER point of the locations you mentioned. Please remember that the gradnetz location would be an area surrounding this center point (at the scale we are talking here, the size of the area would be about 3x4 kilometers (note the range bar showing 9 km in the maps upper corners)).

But, it looks like 26 OST 81447 would be closer to Vyborg, but that both locations would be in the same general area.

This is the center of this location:


(SEE PIC1.JPG)

And this is the center of 26 OST 81352:


(SEE PIC2.JPG)

If the fight was said to have been taking place over Vyborg, I would guess the first location would be more fitting.

Regards,
Andreas"