[Kapper]

Gabor,

Are there any losses near Brno (Brunn) on the 7th May 1945?

In all the writings I’ve seen on Hartmann’s last claim, they state that Hartmann made the claim at about 8.30am on the morning of the 8th May and soon after landing, JG52 received the news of the German surrender. Reportedly they destroyed their aircraft, organised columns and moved out from their base at Deutsch-Brod by 2.00pm and encountered a US Army Tank unit on the evening (presumably around 6pm) of the 8th May at Pizek – 120km away. They move a further 25km to Strakonitz an held there before being handed over to the Russians on the 14th May or 24th May or after 8 days in American captivity – depending on source?

However, the events described above, to me are questionable, as the original unconditional surrender document was signed at 2.41am on the morning of 7th May and under the terms:

“The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorities and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at 23.01 hours Central European time on 8 May 1945, to remain in all positions occupied at that time and to disarm completely, handing over their weapons and equipment to the local allied commanders or officers designated by Representatives of the Allied Supreme Commands. “

The Germans wanted 48hrs to be able to notify the more remote units time of the cessation of hostilities but Eisenhower would only give 48hrs from the time of the beginning of discussions, believing the Germans were using delaying tactics, thus setting the deadline of 23.01hrs 8th May (midnight British time). The Russians insisted that a second signing to occur in Berlin at the surrender time (23.01 hrs 8 May) but this was not actually signed until the early hours of the 9th May – thus differing VE days. I’m not going to go further into the politics of the surrender but just to highlight the time difference of signing to surrender which is relevant to when units would have been notified.

Anyway, the order “to cease active operations” as part of the unconditional surrender would have been sent out on the morning of the 7th May (“at once issue orders”). Most units would have been notified on the 7th and those units that were notified on the 8th May were typically the units that could not be contacted by signal, thus couriers were sent to deliver the message with the last unit reportedly ceasing combat on the Eastern Front on 13th May.

Though it’s possible that JG52 didn’t receive the order until the 8th May, in my opinion this is unlikely as they were still in communication with higher command - having also received signals for Graf and Hartmann to fly out and surrender to the British – a signal mentioned as being hidden during his captivity.

Also, Gerhard Thyben made his last claim at about 7.54am on 8th May while he was evacuating the Courland Pocket (with his mechanic as passenger) – So Thyben already knew that the war was about to be over – likely getting notified the day before (7th May) – but soon after Hartmann was on an offensive patrol, thus reportedly didn’t know the war was about to be over – this doesn’t add up to me.

Could this be another case of Tolliver/Constables dramatic writing? Fighting to the end - last victory in Europe etc.? Whatever the reasoning, this is the earliest source that I know of, that detailed the case of Hartmann’s last victory and subsequent surrender. It seems this version is what is constantly being retold!

Anyway, I believe this claim occurred on the morning of 7th May, on an offensive patrol prior to getting the surrender instruction and that the date confusion was from the fog of war, thus my question about losses on 7th May.

Regards,

Craig…