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Old 14th November 2020, 19:11
NickM NickM is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Bronc, I think you are correct. With an instant ambush it was next to impossible to verify the results. Even a few 'very visual' hits were not enough to down a plane. This is why about 70% of Hartmann's so called 'victories' turn out to be just damaged ones. Lipfert eg. knew, that just to damage an enemy plane was already a huge achievement in itself. Three 'real' air-to-air victories a day was an extraordinary and unusual success for any pilot. This is why I am still amazed that despite of this, generations truly believed the repeated six or more air-to-air victories for Hartmann... General rule: victories can/should ultimately be confirmed by the verified losses of the opponent side, not by the reported claims of your own. (For any sides, of course.)

Gabor

It gets even more confusing when you have a very rugged aircraft (say a Grumman F4F, P40 or P47) vs a lightly armed aircraft (say a Mc202 or a Ki43, or even a early mark of Zero), especially when you're evasive action of choice is dive like hell at full throttle-all the opponent has time to see is an aircraft diving like it's out of control, streaming black smoke (exhausts?) after being hit. I think Lundstrom 'First Team' recounted a Coral Sea dogfight where a F4F pilot got jumped; dove away then climbed back up into the fight several times. He survived but multiple Zero pilots claimed a shot down 'Grumman' in each encounter.

Last edited by NickM; 15th November 2020 at 20:36.
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