Originally Posted by Jim P.
In general I have to agree with edwest2. We would all like certainty in this pursuit, but unfortunately when it comes to this type of endeavor, in all reality you guys are "chasing the wind". The vast majority of actual witnesses have, long since, passed away, the records are incomplete, missing or replete with errors. Can you blame any of the few remaining survivors for their hostility, incomplete memories or whatever? And I'm not just referring to LW guys. You're questioning their integrity as it pertains to their lives. I'm not suggesting giving carte blanche approval to what they claimed from some 75 years ago, but allow the few survivors, from all sides, their dignity.
As is, you guys are cross-referencing the existing records, such as they are, and trying to come to reasonable conclusions based on those. A worthy exercise, but short of some discovery of a 'Holy Grail' treasure trove of records of unassailable accuracy for all, you're all just making educated assumptions based on what is currently available. Nothing wrong with that at all. Realistically though, the "absolute" answer ain't ever gonna happen. Accept it and move on.
Where I get disturbed is when someone starts ascribing motives such as liar, fraud, etc to someone long dead with no way to question them or allow them to defend themselves. And again, this isn't just a LW thing. Think 300 AVG claims versus supposedly about 100 actual Japanese losses in SE Asia in their operational area, the huge number of overclaims by the RAF versus actual LW losses in the BoB and so on and so forth. Overclaiming was a reality by all combatants, end of story. And yes, there are documented instances of intentional fraud - the case of 4./JG27 in NA comes to mind. Get over it.
I guess what makes the LW guys a particular target is the big numbers put up by so many pilots. I get that, but I wasn't there, there is no video via phone or whatever, just the surviving records. You guys are doing great work matching existing records of claims & losses - but short of knowing you have the complete record, you're still engaging in a somewhat speculative exercise. (And yes, I would whole-heartedly agree, it's incredibly unlikely Hartmann actually shot down anywhere near the claimed 350+ Soviet machines.)
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