[Mark Steinitz]

It seems like a good time to revisit the 2014 “12 O’Clock High” thread on Experte Gerhard Thyben’s five Western Front victory claims against the USAAF. New information has emerged. In 2021 Jenny Schuckardt published an eBook, Einsatz ueber den Volken: der Jagdflieger Gerhard Thyben. (Mission above the Clouds: Fighter Pilot Gerhard Thyben.) Although Schuckardt is listed as the author, the book is written in the first person from Thyben’s perspective.

Thyben, flying with the Bf 109 G-5/6-equipped JG 3, affirms that his first victory in the West was 2nd Lt. Dover C. Fleming Jr.’s P-47 on 8 October 1943 at 6000 meters at 1534 hrs. His claim information tracks with data in Fleming’s MACR 939 for 41-6268. Particularly convincing is the convergence of Thyben’s claim location, 50 kilometers west of Egmond, Holland (near Amsterdam), and a map in Fleming’s MACR showing the US pilot’s projected flight path over the Zuider Zee when last seen or heard. This was at about 1518 hrs, according to the most reliable US report by 2nd Lt. Adam Wisniewski. The MACR suggests that Fleming was not flying tightly with his formation and was vulnerable to being picked off. Fleming, who was with the 56th Fighter Group/63rd Fighter Squadron, was KIA.

According to Caldwell and Muller, The Luftwaffe over Germany (2007), p. 126, the 8th Air Force lost three Thunderbolts on 8 October 1943. Tony Wood’s Combat Claims and Casualties List cites four German claims for P-47s on 8 October, but there were only three, according to the more authoritative Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbaende der Deutschen Luftwaffe, 1934 bis 1945, Teil 10/I, (2007), pp. 311-18. Single claims were submitted by pilots from I/JG 3, II/JG 3, and III/JG 1. Fw. Thyben filed the claim for II/JG 3, where he was assigned to the Stab Staffel. This is according to Prien and Stemmer, Jagdgeschwader 3 “Udet” in World War II: II./JG 3 in Action with the Messerschmitt Bf 109, trans. by David Johnston (2003), p. 398. His claim can be matched to a US loss, validating his victory.

Thyben does not name the second P-47 pilot he claimed on 30 November 1943, but it appears to have been 2nd Lt. David C. Kramer, MACR 1445 for 42-8514, 352nd FG/486th FS. While Kramer may at first have evaded capture, he ended up a POW, according to “Allied Airmen Gathered in Comet Camps,” http://www.cometeline.org/ficheD134.html. An in-depth Dutch and English language study of the air battle of 30 November over Holland was completed by Stichting Wings to Victory Airwar Museum. https://db.wingstovictory.nl/pdf/358-story.pdf It finds that Thyben, now flying with 6./JG 3, was awarded the victory over Kramer. Two other US P-47 pilots in Kramer’s unit crashed at the same time and place in Holland as he did. The two pilots were Lt. Robert M. Brown in 42-841 (MACR 1434), KIA and Lt. Robert E. Babbitt, 42-22516 for MACR 1444, KIA. According to the American Air Museum in Britain, Babbitt was downed by Experte FhjObfw. Hans Gruenberg of 5./JG 3, leaving Hptm. Wilhelm Lemke, Kommandeur of II/ JG 3, to notch Brown as his 131st victory. https://www.americanairmuseum.com/ar...edward-babbitt

The US 8th AF lost five P-47s that day, per Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbaende, 10/I, pp. 427-28 and Eric Hammel, Air War Europa (1994), entry for 30 Nov 1943. In an instance of under claiming, however, the Luftwaffe recorded only three downed Thunderbolts -- those by Thyben, Gruenberg, and Lemke, according to Prien and Stemmer, pp. 198, 398. Thyben’s claim can be matched to a US loss, thus authenticating his RLM-confirmed victory.

Thyben’s high point in the West would appear to be his three claimed kills on 11 February 1944. Yet sorting out these claims is problematic, as evidenced by the lack of a conclusion about them in the 2014 thread. As Prien and Stemmer acknowledge on p. 201, “Very little is known about II/JG 3’s defensive mission on this day,” which began at 1055 hrs. Caldwell and Muller, pp. 154-55, report that the US lost eight P-38s, all from the 20th FG on a mission to Frankfurt, Germany. Eight German Staffeln put in 14 claims for P-38s, according to Wood’s List.

Schuckardt’s book devotes several pages to what occurred on 11 February 1944. Thyben recounts how east of St. Vith, Belgium, a small town about 10 km by air from the German border, he downed three P-38s at 1306 hrs , 1307 hrs , and 1310 hrs and at 6300 m, 6000 m, and 5000 m, respectively. He believes he shot down a fourth P-38, but did not claim it for lack of a witness.

According to Schuckardt’s book, in 1994 Thyben visited the Office of the US Air Force Historian at Maxwell AFB, AL and met with historian James H. Kitchens III. Kitchens reportedly certified as valid Thyben’s three claims and told him that all three 20th FG pilots who he downed were KIA, even showing pictures of the flyers to Thyben. Names of the deceased are not listed in Schuckardt’s book. I spoke by telephone on 8 November 2022 with Dr. Kitchens who is since retired from government. He was cordial and willing to talk freely about his meeting with Thyben. Although he recalled meeting him (he at first thought it was sometime in the 1980s), Kitchens naturally had difficulty remembering the specifics of a meeting nearly 30 years ago. He doubted that there would be a written record of the meeting subject to a FOIA request. I also attempted to contact Jenny Schuckardt through her publisher without success.

After researching the events of 11 February 1944, I find the assertion that Thyben downed three P-38s and killed three US pilots impossible to reconcile with US loss records and German claims. To begin, the records of the 20th FG show that only two P-38 pilots perished that day, 2nd Lt. Joseph O. Minton, 77th FS, 42-67728 (MACR 2291) and 2nd Lt. Donald Cooper, 79th FS in 42-67718 (MACR 2159). http://www.20thfightergroup.com/kiakifa.htm One of the posts on the thread from 2014 lists a third P-38 pilot KIA on 11 February 1944, 2nd Lt Neal J. Archer, 79th FS, 42-67760 for MACR 1855. Archer’s MACR records that he died on 14 January 1944.

The status of the six P-38 pilots who survived being shot down on 11 February was as follows: Lt. Colonel Robert P. Montgomery, 20th FG HQ, 42-68036 (MACR 2158), Evaded; 2nd Lt. Miles N. Keathley, 77th FS, 42-677 (MACR 2289), POW; Lt. Thomas A. Hanzo, 79th FS 42-67981 (MACR 2292), POW; 2nd Lt. Melvin H. Orr, 79th FS, 42-6784 (MACR 2290), POW; 2nd Lt. Myron R. Sands, 79th FS, 42-67850 (MACR 2293), POW; and Lt. Leonard S. Smutko, 79th FS, 42-67821 (MACR 2288), POW.

Documenting first the fate of the pilots of the 79th FS, it is very unlikely that Thyben downed and killed 2nd Lt. Cooper who met his demise at a low level, not at the high altitude of Thyben’s claims. According to the statement of 77th FS Major Herbert E. Johnson, Jr. in MACRs 2293 and 2158, for 42-67850 and 42-68036 respectively, he last saw Lt. Col. Montgomery leading his flight from the 79th FS “down on the deck” at about 1310 hrs in the vicinity of Chateau d’ Ardennes, a small town in southeastern Belgium near the French border about 90 km flying distance west of St. Vith. This tracks with Caldwell’s account of 11 February in The JG 26 War Diary, Vol. II (1998), p. 211. He asserts that Montgomery led three P-38s down on the deck where all four were shot down. Their attackers were from JG 26 and JG 2, whose pilots filed five claims for P-38s at very low altitudes (Tiefflug) between 1335 hrs and 1350 hrs, according to Caldwell and Wood’s List. Col. Montgomery, for example, said that he was downed by two Fw 190s and bailed out at 300-400 feet. See MACR 2158 for 42-68036 and http://www.20thfightergroup.com/evaders.html The trio of 79th FS pilots shot down with Montgomery on 11 February 1944 had to include Cooper – as well as Hanzo, and Sands. There is no other explanation in US loss records for these three being shot down.

Neither of the two remaining 79th FS P-38 pilots shot down that day -- Smutko and Orr -- was with Montgomery’s low flight. Nor did Thyben destroy them. Orr was downed by a twin-engine Me 210 at 1256 in the Moselle area of southwest Germany, according to a statement by Yellow Flight leader Captain Robert J. Meyer and three other 20th FG pilots in MACR 2290 for 42-67848. Meyer saw Orr bail out and his plane crash. Orr’s adversary was probably Hptm. Eduard Tratt of Stab II/ZG 26 flying a Me 410 misidentified as a Me 210. Tratt claimed a P-38 at an unknown altitude at 1300 hrs in the Idar-Oberstein area of southwest Germany, according to Wood’s List.

Two Me 410s attacked Lt. Smutko and three other Lightnings led by Captain Meyer in the vicinity of Birkenfeld, Germany, near Idar-Oberstein, according to Meyer and two other 20th FG pilots in MACR 2288 for 42-67821. These towns lie roughly 115 km southeast of St. Vith. Meyer’s P-38s were then bounced by Me 210s at about 1240 hrs, at which time his flight hit the deck on his order. At 1250 hrs, Smutko radioed that he was bailing out. Although no one saw him do so, according to Captain Meyer et al in MACR 2288 covering 42-67821, a 79th FS Mission Report marked No. 17 indicates a parachute was seen and presumed to be Lt. Smutko. A P-38 was also seen to crash. (All Mission and Encounter Reports cited are dated 11 February 1944). http://www.20thfightergroup.com/uplo...on_reports.pdf Given the time, place, and low altitude of Lt. Smutko when he bailed out, it seems highly unlikely that Thyben was his nemesis. It is also unlikely that a US pilot would have mistakenly identified the twin engine Me 210/410 for a single engine Bf 109. Moreover, MACR 2288 as quoted in Stan Bishop and John Hey, Losses of the US 8th and 9th Air Forces, Vol. II (2007) states that Smutko was brought down by FLAK after engaging a Me 210. There is no mention of Bf 109s aloft in any of the American after-action reports on the attacks against Orr and Smutko.

The fate of the two US pilots from 77th FS, 2nd Lt. Minton (KIA) and 2nd Lt. Keathley (POW), remains to be explained. Both Minton and Keathley were with Major Johnson’s White Flight 3 which, per Lt. Russell Quinn’s Encounter Report, was flying at about 21,000 ft. (6300 m). In his statements in Keathley’s and Minton’s MACRs (2189 and 2291 covering 42-67726 and 42-67728, respectively), Quinn recalls enemy aircraft attacking the flight beginning at around 1300 hrs. In his Mission Report marked No. 16, Major Johnson says his flight was attacked from the rear. All this is consistent so far with Thyben’s narrative of his attack in Schuckardt’s book. But whereas Thyben gives the impression of a lone, continuous four-minute attack during which he methodically picked off three victims, Major Johnson’s Encounter Report presents an attack consisting of at least three separate bounces just seconds apart by multiple enemy aircraft employing so-called “boom-and zoom” tactics. He notes in this Encounter Report that the first two bounces were conducted by four Bf 109s attacking in two pairs. The third bounce might have been carried out by a lone Bf 109. Yet by that time, the main damage had been done.
http://www.20thfightergroup.com/uplo...er_reports.pdf http://www.20thfightergroup.com/uplo...on_reports.pdf http://www.20thfightergroup.com/uplo...er_reports.pdf

Keathley’s engine was hit and began to smoke after the first bounce, while Minton and Quinn “broke down” after the second bounce, according to Lt. Quinn’s statement in Minton’s MACR 2291. In MACR 2293 for42-67850, Johnson clarified that gunfire was the cause of Minton’s and Quinn’s engine problem. He recollected that “My flight was bounced twice resulting in two of my men having to go on single engine due to not breaking fast enough.” The two men he was referring to were Minton and Quinn. After the third bounce, added Johnson, “Lt. Minton spun out. “ Johnson then lost track of his flight, per his own admission in his Mission Report No. 16. Quinn states in 42-67728 for MACR 2291that he last saw Minton and Keathley in the vicinity of Chateau d’ Ardennes at about 1315 hrs..

Quinn and Johnson made it back to England, but had no idea of Minton’s fate. See MACR 2291 covering 42-67728 and Mission Report No. 16. Minton apparently recovered from his “spin out.” Nevertheless, translated German documents in Minton’s MACR 2291 mainly regarding his burial and aircraft wreckage, reveal that he was killed when he was shot down by a “day fighter” (Tagjagd) and crashed on fire at 1330 hrs at Perthes, France, 31 kilometers northeast of Rheims, about 90 km south of Chateau d’ Ardennes, and nine kilometers southeast of Rethel where he was buried. This tracks with data in Bishop and Hey, Vol. II, although they give the time of the crash as 1315. There is a claim for a P-38 at very low altitude (Tiefflug) at Rethel at 1335 by Lt. Franz Lackner of 5./JG 2, according to Wood’s List. Minton apparently got caught up in the destruction of Lt. Col. Montgomery’s 79th FS low flight. This explains why there were five claims from 1335 -1350 hrs against Lt. Col. Montgomery’s flight, despite that it was initially comprised of four aircraft. Although Minton suffered combat damage near St. Vith, it would seem that Lt. Lackner was ultimately responsible for downing and killing him.

It is much more difficult to determine who downed 2nd Lt. Keathley. After being hit on the first bounce, he reported to Quinn that he was “Ok, and still flying.” He was last seen at about 1315 hrs near Chateau d’ Ardennes, per MACR 2189 for 42-67726. He crashed at Chaourse near Montecornet, France about 90 km southwest of Chateau d’Ardennes and approximately 50 km north of Rheims also at 1315 hrs, according to information in his MACR and in Bishop and Hay, Vol. II. The simultaneous timing of his last known sighting and reported crash are irreconcilable and confound knowing for certain who downed him.

That said, it is possible that Thyben caused the damage to Keathley’s aircraft that eventually brought it down at Montecornet. Given the timing and altitude of Thyben’s earliest claim at 1306 at 6300 m, there is a reasonable chance that he was in the first bounce that left Keathley’s engine smoking. There are no JG 2 or JG 26 claims that can be linked to Keathley. Still, one cannot discount the RLM-confirmed claim filed by Fw. Johannes Hoyer, also of 6./JG 3, for a P-38 at 1310, at 6300 m, east of St. Vith, per Prien and Stemmer, p. 398 and Wood’s List. To go so far as to say that Thyben probably shot down Keathley because the first of his three claims was four minutes earlier than Hoyer’s, risks assuming a precision that did not always exist in the intensity and stress of WW II aerial combat. It is difficult to rule out that Hoyer might have inflicted the damage that eventually downed Keathley. Alternately, given that the Bf 109s reportedly bounced White Flight 3 in pairs, both German pilots might have damaged his aircraft.

We have now assessed the circumstances for all eight US P-38 pilots lost on 11 February 1944, but two final German claims need to be addressed before we review the conclusions reached. Hptm. Tratt submitted a claim for downing a P-38 at an unknown altitude also at 1310 hrs, but the location – the Oberstein area – would appear to disqualify him from reasonably being the victor over Keathley. Also, Tratt was flying a Me 410 and Major Johnson identified the attackers of his White Flight 3 as 109s. Tratt appears to have over claimed. Lt. Herbert Wagner of Stab II/JG 27 was credited with downing a P-38 near Daun, Germany, according to Prien, et al, Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz bei der II./Jagdgeschwader 27 (1997), pp. 348, 564. Daun is only around 50 km east of St. Vith, but according to JFV information shared with me by Dr. Andrew Arthy, the time of Wagner’s claim was at about 1200 hrs, an hour before the attack on White Flight 3. Based on Mission and Encounter Reports of the 77th FS, I speculate that it was Lt. Wagner who significantly damaged the P-38 of Lt. Albert Gese of the 77th FS Yellow Flight at 1145-1150 hrs southeast of Bonn. This US reporting generally fits with the German pilot’s claim time and location of Daun. Wagner mistakenly claimed it as a shoot down when Gese and the rest of his flight dove for the deck. See Major Johnson’s Mission Report No. 16 and Encounter Reports by Lt. Donald Reihmer and Lt. Irvin Baker. http://www.20thfightergroup.com/uplo...er_reports.pdf We know from Prien, II./JG 27, pp. 347-48, that Wagner took off with his Gruppe on his mission at 1100 hrs and that II/JG 27 was equipped with Bf 109s, the type of aircraft that damaged Gese. Note that in the text of the II./JG 27 volume, it says that Lt Karlheinz Kapp also shot down a P-38 in the High Eifel area near Daun, but this is corrected to a P-47 in the Gruppe victory list on p. 564. Wood’s List also indicates that Kapp downed a P-47 as does Prien et al, Die Jagfliegerverbaende, Teil 13/I (2015), p. 107.

In summary, while serving in the West, Thyben presented five claims against USAAF aircraft, all of which the RLM confirmed. Available evidence indicates that the first two of these, which were P-47s, can be matched conclusively with a USAAF fighter loss. We cannot with the same level of confidence match a US loss to any of the three RLM-confirmed claims Thyben made for P-38s on 11 February 1944. At most, we can say that he might have downed one P-38, but certainly no more. He did not kill any US pilots that day. There is no evidence to suggest that Thyben’s apparent over claiming on 11 February 1944 was deliberate. As Prien and Stemmer note on p. 201, the dogfight that developed involving II/JG 3 and the Lightnings from the 20th FG on that date was “fierce,” while Caldwell and Muller, p. 155, describe the combat as “vicious.” This suggests that Thyben was fighting under particularly heavy pressure. Two 12 OCH members, Andrew Arthy and Nick Hector, who have studied Thyben’s later claims on the Eastern Front with JG 54, have judged him to be a generally reliable claimer. His overly-optimistic claims on 11 February seem to be an aberration.

I invite interested members to comment on and critique this post or to offer new information or interpretations that might change the narrative I have laid out. I am unaware, for example, of any German gun camera footage that could shed light on matters. Although I alone bear responsibility for any errors of fact and judgment, I wish to thank Andrew Arthy and Nick Hector for providing me some very useful German claims and US loss information.