View Single Post
  #24  
Old 18th November 2023, 15:02
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand.
NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943 : Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau. NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.
34. 21/08/1943 : Demensk Spas - FW-190 -Foucaud. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 known to date in the Spas Demensk area.
35. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Mathis. NSIV.
36. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Béguin. NSIV.
37. 30/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - 6:20 p.m. - Good. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe only lost 2 Ju-87s in the sector, one from the 9./St.G.3 and another from the 10./St.G.3, as C.J Ehrengard had already indicated. (ECJ, 1989). The latter therefore seems to validate two victories for the "Normandy", but the study of the Soviet archives shows that on this day the different units of the 1st VA claim 18 Ju-87s in the Ielnia sector (13 for the 8th IAK, 3 for "Normandy", 2 for the 303rd IAD). We have 18 claims for 2 planes shot down. To these figures we must add the planes claimed by the DCA, which represents 5.5% of the planes observed7. The study of ground troop reports does not indicate any peak in Ju-87 activity during this period, only the intervention of 25 He-111s in Korobets at 6:40 p.m. It is therefore currently impossible to locate more precisely the place of combat which must be located to the south-east of Iel'nia. There being no conclusive evidence to link the loss of the 2 Ju-87s to the pilots of the Normandie, the three victories of the day will therefore be classified as VNSI.
38. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Lefèvre - Risso. NSIV.
39. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Lefèvre.NSIV.
40. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - de la Poype. NSIV.
41. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Albert. NSIV.
42. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Barber. NSIV.
43. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - Ju-87 - Béguin/mathis. NSIV.
No loss of Ju-87 found in the German archives, nor any other FW-190 apart from that of Captain Borras, all his victories are therefore classified as VNSI.
44. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - He-111 - Durand. SIV.
Today the different units of the 1st VA claim only one He-111, for its part the II.K./G.53 loses the He-111 H16 n°150594 8 km NW of Ielnia (Pl . Qu. 3534). The pilot and navigator were killed, the rest of the team was able to parachute. (sources: R-2-III-1193, p.162, n°73). The location and scenario match, the downed plane is therefore identified.
45. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Foucaud. NSIV.
46. 31/08/1943 : Ielnia - FW-190 - Léon. NSIV.
This first phase of combat must correspond to the attack of the Schwarm "Cuadra", it is possible that the French pilots interpreted Commander Cuadra's plane damaged by the explosion of the Yak-9 from Normandy as having been hit by their shots . On those days, the Luftwaffe only lost one FW-190, these victories will be classified VNSI.
47. 31/08/1943 :Ielnia - FW-190 - Risso - Mathis. SIV.
In a second phase of combat 5 minutes after the second, the 15.(Span.)/J.G.51 lost the FW-190 A2 – n° 500 of Hptm Borras to the West Ieln'ia during an aerial combat, the German troops on the ground indicate that FW6190 crashed at 1:09 p.m. (R-2-III-1195, p.102, n°44). No other Soviet plane was in the area at that time, so Captain Borras was a victim of the French pilots. This victory is therefore classified as SIV.
48. 01/09/1943: Ielnia - FW-190 - Albert - de la Poype. NSIV.
During this fight near Ielnia, the French pilots were opposed to elements of the 1./J.G.54, including Walter Nowotny. This day the J.G..54 does not lose any aircraft, and the Luftwaffe no FW-190 in the 1st VA sector.

Results: as of August 31, 1943, out of 48 official victories, 5 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of drivers by identified victories:

1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
2°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
3°) Albert Durand : 1 victory.
4°) Didier Béguin : 0,5 victoiry.
4°) Joseph Risso : 0,5 victoiry.
4°) Jacque Mathis : 0,5 victoirY.
__________________
https://normandie-niemen.fr

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 23rd November 2023 at 09:39.
Reply With Quote